Catholicism

[ServingHim]

My point was exactly what Qun is saying...if you never hear the Word, how can God hold you responsible as He would hold someone responsible for denying the Word?

48 But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more. Luke 12:48

5 But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. Romans 2:5-8

sounds as if we're judged on our 'deeds', ALL of mankind...and Christ indeed is our Judge...and EVERY KNEE shall bow, someday!

10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written,

"As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,

and every tongue shall give praise to God."

12 So each of us shall give account of himself to God. Romans 14:10-12 (RSV)

[Spiritual Warrior]

Depending on our culture, we find God different ways. It just is.

that doesn't matter one ioda. Do you believe in John 14:6.

Let's bring this back around to this point. Why did Jesus have to die, if all I have to do is believe in whatever god is; according to my "culture"?

[Wildgraywolf]

So let me ask this question. If you are driving down a road at 55 and get pulled over for speeding, and you say to the cop well Nobody told me the speed limit was 35 on this road. Do you think your gonna get a ticket? Yep, because ignorance is no exuse. Every Man, Woman, or Child is born with a hunger for God, and for Truth. Let us pray they all find it, and that we can be Servants of our Lord and Saviour and Spread the Gospel to those that are lost.

God Bless,

Dave

I don

[ServingHim]

that doesn't matter one ioda.  Do you believe in John 14:6.

Let's bring this back around to this point.  Why did Jesus have to die, if all I have to do is believe in whatever god is; according to my "culture"?

so are you telling me that all Jews, Muslims, etc.etc.etc. / and ALL who have never heard of Christ . . . are ALL going to hell?

[Guest LadyC]

jews and muslims HAVE heard of Christ, and have chosen to reject Him.

there are some notable exceptions. messianic jews have chosen NOT to reject Him, but they are rejected by other jews for having made that choice.

[Wildgraywolf]

jews and muslims HAVE heard of Christ, and have chosen to reject Him.

there are some notable exceptions. messianic jews have chosen NOT to reject Him, but they are rejected by other jews for having made that choice.

As far as the Messianic Jews out there... if they believe Jesus is the Messiah, but not the Son of God are they still saved?

Edited August 23, 2004 by Wildgraywolf

[dwinkjr]

So let me ask this question. If you are driving down a road at 55 and get pulled over for speeding, and you say to the cop well Nobody told me the speed limit was 35 on this road. Do you think your gonna get a ticket? Yep, because ignorance is no exuse. Every Man, Woman, or Child is born with a hunger for God, and for Truth. Let us pray they all find it, and that we can be Servants of our Lord and Saviour and Spread the Gospel to those that are lost.

God Bless,

Dave

I don

[ServingHim]

jews and muslims HAVE heard of Christ, and have chosen to reject Him.

there are some notable exceptions. messianic jews have chosen NOT to reject Him, but they are rejected by other jews for having made that choice.

Justin Martyr in his 'First Apology' 46 [A.D. 151] said ... "We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes [John 1:9]. Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [Greek, logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them. . . . Those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason [logos] were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason [logos], whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason [logos] are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid".

[ServingHim]

On Salvation Outside the Catholic Church

Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.

The Catholic Church makes claims about herself that are easily misunderstood, especially in the modern atmosphere of pluralism and ecumenism. Among these claims, the most fundamental is the doctrine of the Church's necessity for salvation. Not unlike other dogmas of the faith, this one has seen some remarkable development, and the dogmatic progress has been especially marked since the definition of papal infallibility. It seems that as the Church further clarified her own identity as regards the papacy and collegiality, she also deepened (without changing) her self-understanding as the mediator of salvation to mankind.

The New Testament makes it plain that Christ founded the Church to be a society for the salvation of all men. The ancient Fathers held the unanimous conviction that salvation cannot be achieved outside the Church. St. Ireneus taught that "where the Church is, there is the spirit of God, and where the spirit of God is, there is the Church and all grace." (35 ) Origen simply declared, "Outside the Church nobody will be saved." (36) And the favorite simile in patristic literature for the Church's absolute need to be saved is the Ark of Noah, outside of which there is no prospect of deliverance from the deluge of sin.

Alongside this strong insistence on the need for belonging to the Church was another Tradition from the earliest times that is less well known. It was understandable that the early Christian writers would emphasize what is part of revelation, that Christ founded "the Catholic Church which alone retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth; this, the home of faith; this, the temple of God." (37) They were combating defections from Catholic unity and refuting the heresies that divided Christianity in the Mediterranean world and paved the way for the rise of Islam in the seventh century.

But they also had the biblical narrative of the "pagan" Cornelius who, the Acts tell us, was "an upright and God-fearing man" even before baptism. Gradually, therefore, as it became clear that there were "God-fearing" people outside the Christian fold, and that some were deprived of their Catholic heritage without fault on their part, the parallel Tradition arose of considering such people open to salvation, although they were not professed Catholics or even necessarily baptized. Ambrose and Augustine paved the way for making these distinctions. By the twelfth century, it was widely assumed that a person can be saved if some "invincible obstacle stands in the way" of his baptism and entrance into the Church.

Thomas Aquinas restated the constant teaching about the general necessity of the Church. But he also conceded that a person may be saved extra sacramentally by a baptism of desire and therefore without actual membership by reason of his at least implicit desire to belong to the Church.

It would be inaccurate, however, to look upon these two traditions as in opposition. They represent the single mystery of the Church as universal sacrament of salvation, which the Church's magisterium has explained in such a way that what seems to be a contradiction is really a paradox.

Since the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 defined that "The universal Church of the faithful is one, outside of which no one is saved," there have been two solemn definitions of the same doctrine, by Pope Boniface VIII in 1302 and at the Council of Florence in 1442. At the Council of Trent, which is commonly looked upon as a symbol of Catholic unwillingness to compromise, the now familiar dogma of baptism by desire was solemnly defined; and it was this Tridentine teaching that supported all subsequent recognition that actual membership in the Church is not required to reach one's eternal destiny.

At the Second Council of the Vatican, both streams of doctrine were delicately welded into a composite whole:

[The Council] relies on sacred Scripture and Tradition in teaching that this pilgrim Church is necessary for salvation. Christ alone is the mediator of salvation and the way of salvation. He presents himself to us in his Body, which is the Church. When he insisted expressly on the necessity for faith and baptism, he asserted at the same time the necessity for the Church which men would enter by the gateway of baptism. This means that it would be impossible for men to be saved if they refused to enter or to remain in the Catholic Church, unless they were unaware that her foundation by God through Jesus Christ made it a necessity.

Full incorporation in the society of the Church belongs to those who are in possession of the Holy Spirit, accept its order in its entirety with all its established means of salvation, and are united to Christ, who rules it by the agency of the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops, within its visible framework. The bonds of their union are the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government and fellowship. Despite incorporation in the Church, that man is not saved who fails to persevere in charity, and remains in the bosom of the Church "with his body" but not "with his heart." All the Church's children must be sure to ascribe their distinguished rank to Christ's special grace and not to their own deserts. If they fail to correspond with that grace in thought, word and deed, so far from being saved, their judgment will be the more severe. (38)

Using this conciliar doctrine as guide, we see that the Church is (in its way) as indispensable as Christ for man's salvation. The reason is that, since his ascension and the descent of the Spirit, the Church is Christ active on earth performing the salvific work for which he was sent into the world by the Father. Accordingly, the Church is necessary not only as a matter of precept but as a divinely instituted means, provided a person knows that he must use this means to be saved.

Actual incorporation into the Church takes place by baptism of water. Those who are not actually baptized may, nevertheless, be saved through the Church according to their faith in whatever historical revelation they come to know and in their adequate cooperation with the internal graces of the Spirit they receive.

On both counts, however, whoever is saved owes his salvation to the one Catholic Church founded by Christ. It is to this Church alone that Christ entrusted the truths of revelation which have by now, though often dimly, penetrated all the cultures of mankind. It is this Church alone that communicates the merits won for the whole world on the cross.

Those who are privileged to share in the fullness of the Church's riches of revealed wisdom, sacramental power, divinely assured guidance, and blessings of community life cannot pride themselves on having deserved what they possess. Rather they should humbly recognize their chosen position and gratefully live up to the covenant to which they have been called. Otherwise what began as a sign of God's special favor on earth may end as a witness to his justice in the life to come.

{From The Catholic Catechism, Garden City, NY: Doubleday & Co., 1975, pp. 234-236}

35. St. Ireneus, Adversus Haereses, II, 24, 1.

36. Origen, Homilia In Jesu Nave, 3, 5.

37. Lactantius, Divinae Institutiones, IV, 30, 1.

38. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, II, 14.

[jmwhalen]

that doesn't matter one ioda.