Jesus' prayer that 'they may be ONE'

[stevehut]

but because of him and his break away, it began.

Ah, but you still misrepresent the record of history. And that is dishonest.

[stevehut]

hmmmm...a church which began in the 1700s... why would anyone follow a church that didn't begin, in the beginning, with Christ Himself?!

BTW, I am not Pentecostal. Never have been, and I have no desire to do so.

But in your zeal to defend your belief system, you have once again misrepresented the historical facts.

[stevehut]

hmmmm, my history books read differently. Guess it all depends on 'which angle' you study from.

I'd sure like to know what book you're reading, then. If it says that Luther was the first Protestant rebel, then you'd better go find another book. It has not served you well.

It's not about angles, it's about taking into account the whole record.

[ServingHim]

but because of him and his break away, it began. 

Ah, but you still misrepresent the record of history. And that is dishonest.

so give what your thoughts on actually what happened? I thought he was the one that posted the 95 thesis that began it all...am I incorrect?

[ServingHim]

hmmmm, my history books read differently.  Guess it all depends on 'which angle' you study from. 

I'd sure like to know what book you're reading, then. If it says that Luther was the first Protestant rebel, then you'd better go find another book. It has not served you well.

It's not about angles, it's about taking into account the whole record.

I'd love to know the ACTUAL history then and how to find it...any suggestions?

[ServingHim]

hmmmm...a church which began in the 1700s...  why would anyone follow a church that didn't begin, in the beginning, with Christ Himself?!

BTW, I am not Pentecostal. Never have been, and I have no desire to do so.

But in your zeal to defend your belief system, you have once again misrepresented the historical facts.

then why don't you give us the accurate record of history and what ACTUALLY happened with sources and how you know they are accurate.

[nebula]

ServingHim -

I am amazed at your ability to defend your position with, "Well, that is your opinion responses."

I wonder what it is that you are expressing?

Are they not your opinions as well?

Or will you tell me that your responses are those indoctrinated within you to be the only truth by your priest, bishop, etc.?

Have you seriously ever "studied the Scriptures for yourself to see if these words are true" that you were raised to believe?

I have. I grew up in a Lutheran Church and believed much Lutheran doctrine. As I became exposed to other doctrines, I began searching things out. I read the Bible for myself and saw what it said as is.

Over time, my theology has been worked and re-worked and re-developed as I studied and learned and evaluated.

I see in history a different Church today than what began in Israel 2000 years ago. No, changes did not begin with Constantine, but they did began when Church leadership shifted from the hands of the Jewish believers and into the hands of the Gentile believers.

Do you believe Peter and Paul would approve of the Vatican system? With all their wealth and pomp and circumstances? Would Peter approve of this concept of the "Vicar of Christ"? Of the sacraments? Of "paying your way out of Purgatory"? The Crusades? "Having a form of godliness but denying its power"?

I have a book on church history that recounts a conversation between Pope Innocent IV and Thomas Aquinas "as bags of treasure were being carried through the gates of the Lateran. 'You see,' oberved the Pope with a smile, 'the day is past when the church could say, "Silver and gold have I none."' 'Yes, Holy Father,' was Aquinas' reply, 'and the day is past when the church could say to the lame man, "Rise and walk!"'

I am sure you have many, many Catholic websites on hand to defend each and every challenge.

But I wonder - have you looked into these things for yourself? Have you considered the writings of the prophets in the Old Testament and learned from them?

How do your know that what your present here as "God's truth" really is? Is it because it is what was told you by those in authority over you? Or do you have a living personal relation with God Himself and are seeking to know His heart and His mind in all things? Are you a disciple of the Catholic Church or a disciple of Jesus? Do you know the voice of the Holy Spirit for yourself?

:flowers:

[Adstar]

ServingHim

Why did catholics break away from the body of Christ to join Constantine in His lust for worldly power? Who broke away from whom? Who abandoned the truth for worldly security and power?

PERHAPS THIS will help you to understand the error of what you THINK happened regarding Constantine... Perhaps also THIS will continue to fill in the 'black hole' of history

I read all the points that where provided on that site and i have used non of those points to demonstrate the falseness of the catholic church.

The very fact that your church aligned itself with a worldly leader and supported Him in a carnal struggle for power automatically dismisses them from the body of Christ. Jesus said:

Matthew 5: 43-48

43 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

you don't love your enemies by killing them with the sword. You don't love your enemies by burning them at the stake. you do not love your enemies by launching a bloody crusade against them. The wanton rebellion against the WORD of God clearly manifested in the works of the catholic church is clear for all true followers of the Messiah Jesus to see and no amount of theologians or historians can wipe away the evil fruit of the great deceivers.

http://home.inreach.com/bstanley/roman.htm

*Calling the Catholic Church an "apostate Church" is tantamount to calling Jesus Christ a liar

We shall see who the liars are on the Day of Judgment.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[stevehut]

so give what your thoughts on actually what happened?

Your original statement was about Luther establishing a schismatic sect. He didn't. Rather, he was protesting a heretical practice which (I humbly point out) the Catholic Church has since discontinued.

[stevehut]

then why don't you give us the accurate record of history and what ACTUALLY happened

I believe I just did, a few posts back.

Of particular interest is Jan (John) Hus, a Czech reformer, 1300's. Much the same issues as Luther, but his movement didn't catch on then.

Most of my research was on the Internet, I believe you have access to Yahoo, Google, etc.