Jesus' prayer that 'they may be ONE'

[mobile21]

One more conclusion I got in here from my experience:

Every catholic/protestant debate begins with the protestant questioning the biblical nature of some practice, then the catholic provides some Scripture and it goes on and on and on.......

What catholics should do to change the dynamics of a debate is to indicate that not observing something prescribed by the Bible is as wrong as the allegedly "unbiblical" practice the protestant tries to point out, for example, the Sacrament of Penance as established by Jesus Christ Himself:

"...Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." (Jn 20, 22-23)

Few years after Luther left the Church, he still practiced it but eventually he dropped it because he felt silly doing it, and he felt silly doing it because he no longer belonged to the true Church so he found no longer meaning in it.

All protestant churches who do not practice this Sacrament are being completely unbiblical.

So there you go, to ignore something in the Bible is as bad as to go against it; do it as I tell you and you'll succeed because protestants in practice ignore a whole lot of biblical stuff.

[stevehut]

Every catholic/protestant debate begins with the protestant questioning the biblical nature of some practice, then the catholic provides some Scripture

This has not been my experience.

Far more often than not, when I attempt to reason from the Bible with a Catholic,they counter with logic and tradition.

[ServingHim]

Every catholic/protestant debate begins with the protestant questioning the biblical nature of some practice, then the catholic provides some Scripture

This has not been my experience.

Far more often than not, when I attempt to reason from the Bible with a Catholic,they counter with logic and tradition.

I believe that this is not what I do...I try to 'reason' with Scripture alone, but when there comes a disagreement in 'who is right in their own interpretation', then always the non-Catholic says that the Catholic is automatically wrong, even though the non-Catholic might disagree with other non-catholics on that very issue. Seems to me that when it all boils down to it, the non-Catholic relies SOLELY on HIS OWN interpetation of what he THINKS scriptures mean, even though Peter warned us about this (2 Peter 3:16-17 & 2 Peter 1:20).

[stevehut]

I believe that this is not what I do...I try to 'reason' with Scripture alone

Then you're a rare bird, indeed.

From all of my years in the Catholic education system, we almost never opened a Bible. We studied popes, saints, and the catechism. Almost never a Bible.

[ServingHim]

I believe that this is not what I do...I try to 'reason' with Scripture alone

Then you're a rare bird, indeed.

From all of my years in the Catholic education system, we almost never opened a Bible. We studied popes, saints, and the catechism. Almost never a Bible.

that's too bad...

The teachings of the Catholic Church clearly state:

132 "Therefore, the study of the sacred page should be the very soul of sacred theology. The ministry of the Word, too - pastoral preaching, catechetics and all forms of Christian instruction, among which the liturgical homily should hold pride of place - is healthily nourished and thrives in holiness through the Word of Scripture."

133 The Church "forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful. . . to learn the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ, by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures. Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.

[stevehut]

Serving Him, in my estimation, it matters little what the "official" documents of any religion say.

What matters, ultimately, is what the people in the pews are being taught.

In many churches, there is a great divide between the two.

But hey, didn't the Council of Trent minimize the importance of the Scriptures? Come on, you know...

[ServingHim]

Serving Him, in my estimation, it matters little what the "official" documents of any religion say.

so then you might as well throw out the creeds...isn't THAT an 'official' document.

What matters, ultimately, is what the people in the pews are being taught.

so true...but do the 'teachers' in the pulpits teach Truth according to THEIR ESTIMATION of what they THINK it is, or are they ALL genuinely being led by Christ, EVEN THOUGH all the 'churches/denominations' disagree?

In many churches, there is a great divide between the two.

what, that the congregation disagree with what is being taught in the pulipt?

or that the preacher preaches in conflict with the scriptures?

or that the people decide for themselves what the Word of God means and they don't need a church, a council, a leader, NOR someone to tell them anything.

But hey, didn't the Council of Trent minimize the importance of the Scriptures?

[Scudbuddy]

Because too many people spend thousands and thousands of hours reading the bible making things much more complex than did Paul and the other first century teachers.

My research has led me to a different conclusion.

Seems to me that a lot of "Christian" doctrines were formed in the absence of any particular Biblical scholarship. Since the people didn't have Bibles of their own, they were in no position to argue against it.

Up until the beginning of the 19th century, over 99% of all Christians in the world had never seen or read a Bible. At that point, when the average man became smarter by reading for himself, many of these teachers were forced to find "proof texts" for their teachings. And in so doing, they had to twist certain parts of the Bible to fit into their belief systems.

I hope that makes sense.

Steve,

This insight is true. But it also is damaging to the idea that the gifts went out with the coming of the word. It shows that even if it were so, the first 1900 years the word was not at hand for the vast majority of Christians.

[stevehut]

1- do the 'teachers' in the pulpits teach Truth according to THEIR ESTIMATION of what they THINK it is,

2- what, that the congregation disagree with what is being taught in the pulipt?

3- I'm only in my early 40s and the Church has a 2ooo year history! I haven't had enough time to do ALL research on ALL Church documents for 2000 years.

1- Maybe. But that wasn't my point. In my experience, there's a general lacking of doctrinal instruction in churches, period. And the people end up being far too open-minded and susceptible to every wind of teaching that comes along.

2- Again, perhaps. But what I meant, was that (in many places) the members simply don't get enough instruction to have a good handle on what they believe in.

3- Nice try.

I don't expect any person to have mastered the whole of church history. But the Council of Trent is important, because it's about more than just a particular doctrine. It has to do with teaching authority, and how you determine what teachings are sound and which are not.

This is huge, and far too important for any Catholic person not to know.

[ServingHim]

1- do the 'teachers' in the pulpits teach Truth according to THEIR ESTIMATION of what  they THINK it is,

2- what, that the congregation disagree with what is being taught in the pulipt?

3- I'm only in my early 40s and the Church has a 2ooo year history!  I haven't had enough time to do ALL research on ALL Church documents for 2000 years.

1- Maybe. But that wasn't my point. In my experience, there's a general lacking of doctrinal instruction in churches, period. And the people end up being far too open-minded and susceptible to every wind of teaching that comes along.

does your church have the proper teaching?