Mary.

[Botz]

I feel the subject of Melchizedek has been covered but I didn't want to hi-jack it so I started this thread as it evolves from some references made. I just wanted to continue the discussion of the idea of Mary as co-redemptrix amongst other titles especially having read the 3 links that ServingHim kindly provided.

Here are a couple of quotes lifted from the various writings from which enough of a guideline can be established as to what the intent is aiming at.

We see the comparison of Jesus and Mary: Jesus is the King, and Mary is the Queen. Jesus is perfect, and so is Mary. Jesus ascended into heaven, and Mary was assumed. Jesus is the mediator, and so is Mary. Like Mother like Son! We must not be discouraged to hold the Woman's hand at the cross because she is the one that leads us to her Son.

Theologians have proposed that Mary participated in an immediate way in the objective redemption of mankind. Some popes and saints have suggested as much. Pope Benedict XV wrote: "She renounced her mother's rights for the salvation of mankind and, as far as it depended on her, offered her Son to placate divine justice; so we may say that with Christ she redeemed mankind." In saying this, we are in no way diminishing the unique, singular salvific act of Jesus Christ. The Virgin Mary cooperated in our redemption under and subordinate to Christ. She merited de congruo what Christ merited de condigno in the theological formulation of the great Jesuit theologian Suarez and repeated by Pope St. Pius X. God freely willed to associate the Blessed Mother in a intimate and direct way with her Son in the redemption of mankind.

[nebula]

I just made this point in a different thread with a longer post -

but if one researches the title "Queen of Heaven" one sees that it is a title given to the pagan goddess long before Christianity (Isis, Diana, Gaia, etc.). The "Madonna" image is likewise a pagan goddess.

This can be easily researched.

And it is very tragic.

[Adstar]

I feel the subject of Melchizedek has been covered but I didn't want to hi-jack it so I started this thread as it evolves from some references made. I just wanted to continue the discussion of the idea of Mary as co-redemptrix amongst other titles especially having read the 3 links that ServingHim kindly provided.

Here are a couple of quotes lifted from the various writings from which enough of a guideline can be established as to what the intent is aiming at.

We see the comparison of Jesus and Mary: Jesus is the King, and Mary is the Queen. Jesus is perfect, and so is Mary. Jesus ascended into heaven, and Mary was assumed. Jesus is the mediator, and so is Mary. Like Mother like Son! We must not be discouraged to hold the Woman's hand at the cross because she is the one that leads us to her Son.

Theologians have proposed that Mary participated in an immediate way in the objective redemption of mankind. Some popes and saints have suggested as much. Pope Benedict XV wrote: "She renounced her mother's rights for the salvation of mankind and, as far as it depended on her, offered her Son to placate divine justice; so we may say that with Christ she redeemed mankind." In saying this, we are in no way diminishing the unique, singular salvific act of Jesus Christ. The Virgin Mary cooperated in our redemption under and subordinate to Christ. She merited de congruo what Christ merited de condigno in the theological formulation of the great Jesuit theologian Suarez and repeated by Pope St. Pius X. God freely willed to associate the Blessed Mother in a intimate and direct way with her Son in the redemption of mankind.

[ServingHim]

Mary is the Queen!...Where on earth does this spring from?

greetings, botz thanks for starting this new thread...

From 'Scripture Alone' (which as Catholics we normally don't LIMIT to it, especially since even Paul said) ... So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. 2 Thess 2:15 ... I will from only Scripture lay out some insights, I pray.

Mary is our Mother and Queen of the New Davidic Kingdom

John 19:26 - Jesus makes Mary the Mother of us all as He dies on the Cross by saying "behold your mother." Jesus did not say "John, behold your mother" because he gave Mary to all of us, his beloved disciples. All the words that Jesus spoke on Cross had a divine purpose. Jesus was not just telling John to take care of his mother.

Rev. 12:17 - this verse proves the meaning of John 19:26. The "woman's" (Mary's) offspring are those who follow Jesus. She is our Mother and we are her offspring in Jesus Christ. The master plan of God's covenant love for us is family. But we cannot be a complete family with the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Christ without the Motherhood of Mary.

John 2:3 - this is a very signifcant verse in Scripture. As our mother, Mary tells all of us to do whatever Jesus tells us. Further, Mary's intercession at the marriage feast in Cana triggers Jesus' ministry and a foreshadowing of the Eucharistic celebration of the Lamb. This celebration unites all believers into one famiy through the marriage of divinity and humanity.

John 2:7 - Jesus allows His mother to intercede for the people on His behalf, and responds to His mother's request by ordering the servants to fill the jars with water.

Psalm 45:9 - the psalmist teaches that the Queen stands at the right hand of God. The role of the Queen is important in God's kingdom. Mary the Queen of heaven is at the right hand of the Son of God.

1 Kings 2:17, 20 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the King does not refuse his mother. Jesus is the new Davidic King, and He does not refuse the requests of his mother Mary, the Queen.

1 Kings 2:18 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the Queen intercedes on behalf of the King's followers. She is the Queen Mother (or "Gebirah"). Mary is our eternal Gebirah.

1 Kings 2:19 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom the King bows down to his mother and she sits at his right hand. We, as children of the New Covenant, should imitate our King and pay the same homage to Mary our Mother. By honoring Mary, we honor our King, Jesus Christ.

1 Kings 15:13 - the Queen Mother is a powerful position in Israel's royal monarchy. Here the Queen is removed from office. But now, the Davidic kingdom is perfected by Jesus, and our Mother Mary is forever at His right hand.

2 Chron. 22:10 - here Queen Mother Athalia destroys the royal family of Judah after she sees her son, King Ahaziah, dead. The Queen mother plays a significant role in the kingdom.

Neh. 2:6 - the Queen Mother sits beside the King. She is the primary intercessor before the King.

Mary is perfect!...I can't find it in my Bible...refs please!

We're CALLED to be perfect ...

And he came to her and said, "Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!" Luke 1:28

You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matt 5:48

"If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." Matt 19:21

that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. James 1:4

The Uniqueness of Mary as the Mother of God

Gen. 3:15 - we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says "I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed." This refers to Jesus (the "emnity") and Mary (the "woman"). The phrase "her seed" (spermatos) is not seen elsewhere in Scripture.

Gen 3:15 / Rev. 12:1 - the Scriptures begin and end with the woman battling satan. This points to the power of the woman with the seed and teaches us that Jesus and Mary are the new Adam and the new Eve.

John 2:4, 19:26 - Jesus calls Mary "woman" as she is called in Gen. 3:15. Just as Eve was the mother of the old creation, Mary is the mother of the new creation. This woman's seed will crush the serpent's skull.

Isaiah 7:14; Matt. 1:23 - a virgin (the Greek word used is "parthenos") will bear a Son named Emmanuel, which means "God is with us." John 1:14 - God in flesh dwelt among us. Mary is the Virgin Mother of God.

Matt. 2:11 - Luke emphasizes Jesus is with Mary His Mother, and the magi fall down before both of them, worshiping Jesus.

Luke 1:35 - the child will be called holy, the Son of God. Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, or the Mother of God (the "Theotokos").

Luke 1:28 - "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you." These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel (who is a messenger of God). Thus, when Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the words of God.

Luke 1:28 - also, the phrase "full of grace" is translated from the Greek word "kecharitomene." This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just "highly favored." She has been perfected in grace by God. "Full of grace" is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.

Luke 1:38 - Mary's fiat is "let it be done to me according to thy word." Mary is the perfect model of faith in God, and is worthy of our veneration.

Luke 1:42 - "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus." The phrase "blessed are you among women" really means "you are most blessed of all women." A circumlocution is used because there is no superlative in the Greek language. Note also that Elizabeth praises Mary first, and then Jesus. This is hyperdulia (but not latria which is worship owed to God alone). We too can go through Mary to praise Jesus. Finally, Catholics repeat these divinely inspired words of Elizabeth in the Rosary.

Luke 1:43 - Elizabeth's use of "Mother of my Lord" (in Hebrew, Elizabeth used "Adonai" which means Lord God) is the equivalent of "Holy Mary, Mother of God" which Catholics pray in the Rosary. The formula is simple: Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus' Mother, so Mary is the mother of God (Mary is not just the Mother of Jesus' human nature - mothers are mothers of persons, not natures).

Luke 1:44 - Mary's voice causes John the Baptist to leap for joy in Elizabeth's womb. Luke is teaching us that Mary is our powerful intercessor.

Luke 1:46 - Mary claims that her soul magnifies the Lord. This is a bold statement from a young Jewish girl from Nazareth. Her statement is a strong testimony to her uniqueness. Mary, as our Mother and intercessor, also magnifies our prayers.

Luke 1:48 - Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the "Hail Mary" prayer. What Protestant churches have existed in all generations (none), and how many of them call Mary blessed with special prayers and devotions?

Gal. 4:4 - God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. Mary is the woman with the redeemer. By calling Mary co-redemptrix, we are simply calling Mary "the woman with the redeemer." This is because "co" is from the Latin word "cum" which means "with." Therefore, "co-redemptrix" means "woman with the redeemer." Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.

Eph. 1:1; Phil. 1:1; Col. 1:2 - the word "saints" (in Hebrew "qaddiysh") means "holy" ones. So Mary is called Holy, the greatest Saint of all.

Luke 2:35 - Simeon prophesies that a sword would also pierce Mary's soul. Mary thus plays a very important role in our redemption. While Jesus' suffering was all that we needed for redemption, God desired Mary to participate on a subordinate level in her Son's suffering, just as he allows us to participate through our own sufferings.

Luke 2:19,51 - Mary kept in mind all these things as she pondered them in her heart. Catholics remember this by devoting themselves to Mary's Immaculate Heart and all the treasures and wisdom and knowledge contained therein.

Misunderstanding about Romans 3:23 ("All have sinned")

Rom. 3:23 - Some Protestants use this verse "all have sinned" in an attempt to prove that Mary was also with sin. But "all have sinned " only means that all are subject to original sin. Mary was spared from original sin by God, not herself. The popular analogy is God let us fall in the mud puddle, and cleaned us up afterward through baptism. In Mary's case, God did not let her enter the mud puddle.

Rom. 3:23 - "all have sinned" also refers only to those able to commit sin. This is not everyone. For example, infants, the retarded, and the senile cannot sin.

Rom. 3:23 - finally, "all have sinned," but Jesus must be an exception to this rule. This means that Mary can be an exception as well. Note that the Greek word for all is "pantes."

1 Cor. 15:22 - in Adam all ("pantes") have died, and in Christ all ("pantes") shall live. This proves that "all" does not mean "every single one." This is because not all have died (such as Enoch and Elijah who were taken up to heaven), and not all will go to heaven (because Jesus said so).

Rom. 5:12 - Paul says that death spread to all ("pantes") men. Again, this proves that "all" does not mean "every single one" because death did not spread to all men (as we have seen with Enoch and Elijah).

Rom. 5:19 - here Paul says "many (not all) were made sinners." Paul uses "polloi," not "pantes." Is Paul contradicting what he said in Rom. 3:23? Of course not. Paul means that all are subject to original sin, but not all reject God.

Rom. 3:10-11 - Protestants also use this verse to prove that all human beings are sinful and thus Mary must be sinful. But see Psalm 14 which is the basis of the verse.

Psalm 14 - this psalm does not teach that all humans are sinful. It only teaches that, among the wicked, all are sinful. The righteous continue to seek God.

Psalm 53:1-3 - "there is none that does good" expressly refers to those who have fallen away. Those who remain faithful do good, and Jesus calls such faithful people "good."

Luke 18:19 - Jesus says, "No one is good but God alone." But then in Matt. 12:35, Jesus also says "The good man out of his good treasure..." So Jesus says no one is good but God, and then calls another person good.

Rom. 9:11 - God distinguished between Jacob and Esau in the womb, before they sinned. Mary was also distinguished from the rest of humanity in the womb by being spared by God from original sin.

Luke 1:47 - Mary calls God her Savior. Some Protestants use this to denigrate Mary. Why? Of course God is Mary's Savior! She was freed from original sin in the womb (unlike us who are freed from sin outside of the womb), but needed a Savior as much as the rest of humanity.

Luke 1:48 - Mary calls herself lowly. But any creature is lowly compared to God. For example, in Matt. 11:29, even Jesus says He is lowly in heart. Lowliness is a sign of humility, which is the greatest virtue of holiness, because it allows us to empty ourselves and receive the grace of God to change our sinful lives.

Mary was assumed!...500 witnesses? More? Where,when and how?

FOR MORE INFORMATION, TOO LONG TO POST HERE, please read THIS

and THIS ALSO.

THIS IS WORTH READING

AS WELL AS THIS IS WORTH READING.

MORE HISTORY

of where this Tradition came from, READ THIS from the Encyclopedia. I hope this will get you started.

As for Co-Redemptrix I like all Believers appreciate the great role that Mary played and I can see why she might be referred to as the second Eve or mother of G-d...but I still find this mis-leading and mis-directing people to accord Mary almost god-like status.

she is not 'god-like' status, but a TRUE magnification of our LORD! Isn't that what YOU desire to become somday... the GOAL!

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. Romans 8:29

And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. 2 Cor 3:18

Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. 1 Cor 15:49

who will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power which enables him even to subject all things to himself. Phil 3:21

and become partakers of the divine nature. 2 Peter 1:4

Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. 1 John 3:2-3

God bless botz! May the peace of our Lord be ALWAYS with you! :il:

[ServingHim]

This can be easily researched.

It most certainly can...again, it depends on which angle you try to find the FACTS~

[ServingHim]

[Botz]

Thanks for the detailed information ServingHim I have read everything you wrote and will look into the websites you have directed me to. I must say I don't think I have ever encountered Scripture used in quite the way you have presented it,and I have checked most of the references in my Bible and found many anomalies between both the Scripture and the overall context..but will pursue this later when I have read the websites you directed me to.

May the L-rd also bless you and cause you to rejoice at all times. In Him..Botz. :hug:

[nebula]

ServingHIm -

In Luke 11:27, it says:

As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you."

What was Jesus' response in vs. 28?

Did He say something like, "How correct you are!"

Or did He say something else entirely?

[Adstar]

1 I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, 2 with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, 3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. 7 But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. Eph 4:1-7

Yes there is one body and one Spirit and it never has fellowship with darkness. And i will have no fellowship with darkness either. I have not condemned anyone only God will do that. But i will clearly state the thoughts that i have as a warning to all those who are caught up in deception that some may hear the call and come out of false religion. May you come to hear the call and free yourself from lies.

All praise the Ancient Of Days

[Guest Berkana]

Edited August 23, 2004 by Berkana