Mary.

[Guest LadyC]

interesting information shiloh!

but would you agree that the TRUE key to the kingdom, the literal key, is Christ?

[Guest LadyC]

bob, i'd never noticed that passage in joshua, i'm glad you posted it!

see, this thread IS still beneficial! i'm still learning!

[ServingHim]

it's pointless to continue this discussion with you. i do believe it has been beneficial to others, and i'll be happy to respond should any have questions... but in response to you, i'll re-quote one verse of the ones i posted above.

16

[Guest LadyC]

i have never claimed to have an exclusive hold on all the truth, dear... i've only claimed that the Bible does. and yes, we can agree to disagree.

[Botz]

LadyC...just in passing.

You wrote...

what exactly is the kingdom of heaven? it is the truth of the God's Word. it is the gospel of Jesus Christ. without Jesus, none of us can enter into the kingdom of heaven. what is loosed or bound in heaven is not done so on peter's command, or on the pope's command, or on the command of the diocese. it is done in the name of Jesus Christ by those who believe in Him.... those who have Jesus, the Key to heaven. have you never used that authority in Jesus to bind or loose anything in heaven? i have two teenage daughters, and i used that authority frequently over the years. it's not so much an "authority" as it is a "responsibility"... the ultimate authority over this is God Himself, and when you petition Jesus to bind satan from harming your children, for example, or to loose the ministering angels for their protection, as another example, you are using that responsibility as it was intended. all in the name of Jesus, of course, because He is the final authority.

In actual fact 'binding and loosing' has very little to do with getting Jesus to 'bind' or prevent 'devils' from attacking Believers or that ministering angels might be 'loosed' to aid those in need. This is what some might refer to as Charasmatic gobbledegook and is an unbiblical and unhistoric misconception. It again stems from Hebrew thought and idiom and there are many examples in ancient Jewish writings of the rabbinical use of "binding" and "loosing". That which is said to be "bound" is something that is forbidden. That which is "loosed" is permitted, nothing more, nothing less.

David Bivin wrote an interesting little book called 'Understanding the difficult words of Jesus',and he covers this and several other fanciful ideas we mistakenly apply in peculiar ways because we don't have a Jewish perspective.

[Guest LadyC]

botz, i see what you're saying, but i used only one example. if, using my example, satan is bound in heaven from harming my child, is satan not then forbidden?

not trying to be cantankerous, but i don't recall any scripture limiting binding and loosing to any particulars. perhaps you could expand on this? in any case, the way you put it certainly does shed a different light on it than how i'm accustomed to viewing it, and certainly makes a great deal of sense!

[Botz]

Hi LadyC...I just mention it because I have seen many people attempting to engage in a type of spiritual warfare based on these verses that I have always thought to be rather strange in the light of the fact that that not only don't they endorse this but also...Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

I have heard people say..'I bind you Satan in the name of Jesus'..as they attempt to take authority not over a specific devil...but of Satan himself..and I think this is dangerous presumption...even the L-rd did not address Satan in this manner...but constantly brought the word of G-d against his temptations and religious lies ...before commanding him to depart.

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Mat 4:11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

1Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Mat 17:14 And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,

Mat 17:15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.

Mat 17:16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.

Mat 17:17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.

Mat 17:18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.

Mat 17:19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Mat 17:21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

It is a learning process for me... we do have the authority in Messiah to cast out devils...but we should be careful not to go beyond the word of G-d...or beyond the realms of our own faith...and we are certainly not to actively seek an encounter against Satan himself.

2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

2Co 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Praise G-d that greater is He who is in us...than he who is in the world.

[Guest LadyC]

very good food for thought, botz, thank you. i have been known to use those words, and now i'm seeing that binding satan in the name of Jesus is improper, and unbiblical! i'm not sure at what point i began that useage... or why. my daddy always taught me to rebuke satan and command him to get lost, and somehow it seems that over time i began seeing the two as interchangeable... rebuking and binding... which they're not.

in reading your post it occurred to me also that binding satan would be ineffectual... satan is not bound. not yet. this will happen in the milennial reign, when satan and all his minions will be bound for that thousand years, and then loosed once more for a brief period of time before being bound for eternity. why then, did i stray off course? i'm sure i remember this from a sermon, or from someone whom i thought to be very strong spiritually... i can almost hear it, but i can't put my finger on who or when.

but ya know, this ties in with exactly what we've been trying to point out... nobody is infallible, and that's why it is so critical to examine what we are taught and be sure it lines up with scripture. it's so easy to be mislead by well-meaning individuals, and it snowballs. i don't recall ever passing on that doctrine, but just my having referred to it in this post could have done just that... perpetuating a false teaching albeit with the best of intention.

anyway, my thanks to you for correcting me!

[Guest Berkana]

Is Mary the "mother of God"?

do YOU believe that Mary IS the Mother of God?

[Botz]

LadyC...May we all have such a lovely teachable spirit. :hug:

1Peter 5:5 ".... Yea, all of you gird yourselves with humility, to serve one another: for God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble."