Mary.

[BobTriez]

Jesus said that there's no other way to the Father except through Him - SO, that being said, how can you follow a religion who claims absolution through the church and not through Christ ( don't deny it - that's what the RCC teaches ) ?

bob, the Church IS the MYSTICAL BODY OF CHRIST!

The Church is Infallible and Supernatural - The Church IS CHRIST, THE SPOUSE, HIS BODY, the TWO BECOME ONE!!!!

Isa. 35:8, 54:13-17 - this prophecy refers to the Church as the Holy Way where sons will be taught by God and they will not err. The Church has been given the gift of infallibility when teaching about faith and morals, where her sons are taught directly by God and will not err. This gift of infallibility means that the Church is prevented from teaching error by the power of the Holy Spirit (it does not mean that Church leaders do not sin!)

Acts 9:2; 22:4; 24:14,22 - the early Church is identified as the "Way" prophesied in Isaiah 35:8 where fools will not err therein.

Matt. 10:20; Luke 12:12 - Jesus tells His apostles it is not they who speak, but the Spirit of their Father speaking through them. If the Spirit is the one speaking and leading the Church, the Church cannot err on matters of faith and morals.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus promises the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church. Since the Catholic Church was the only Church which existed up until the Reformation, those who follow the Protestant reformers call Christ a liar by saying that Hades did prevail.

Matt. 16:19 - for Jesus to give Peter and the apostles, mere human beings, the authority to bind in heaven what they bound on earth requires infallibility. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the holiness of the person receiving the gift.

Matt. 18:17-18 - the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith. She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation.

Matt. 28:20 - Jesus promises that He will be with the Church always. Jesus' presence in the Church assures infallible teaching on faith and morals. With Jesus present, we can never be deceived.

Mark 8:33 - non-Catholics sometimes use this verse to down play Peter's authority. This does not make sense. In this verse, Jesus rebukes Peter to show the import of His Messianic role as the Savior of humanity. Moreover, at this point, Peter was not yet the Pope with the keys, and Jesus did not rebuke Peter for his teaching. Jesus rebuked Peter for his lack of understanding.

Luke 10:16 - whoever hears you, hears me. Whoever rejects you, rejects me. Jesus is very clear that the bishops of the Church speak with Christ's infallible authority.

Luke 22:32 - Jesus prays for Peter, that his faith may not fail. Jesus' prayer for Peter's faith is perfectly efficacious, and this allows Peter to teach the faith without error.

John 11:51-52 - some non-Catholics argue that sinners cannot have the power to teach infallibly. But in this verse, God allows Caiaphas to prophesy infallibly, even though he was evil and plotted Jesus' death. God allows sinners to teach infallibly, just as He allows sinners to become saints. As a loving Father, He exalts His children, and is bound by His own justice to give His children a mechanism to know truth from error.

1 & 2 Peter - for example, Peter denied Christ, he was rebuked by his greatest bishop (Paul), and yet he wrote two infallible encyclicals. Further, if Peter could teach infallibly by writing, why could he not also teach infallibly by preaching? And why couldn't his successors so teach as well?

Gen. to Deut.; Psalms; Paul - Moses and probably Paul were murderers and David was an adulterer and murderer, but they also wrote infallibly. God uses us sinful human beings because when they respond to His grace and change their lives, we give God greater glory and His presence is made more manifest in our sinful world.

John 14:16 - Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would be with the Church forever. The Spirit prevents the teaching of error on faith and morals. It is guaranteed because the guarantee comes from God Himself.

John 14:26 - Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would teach the Church (the apostles and successors) all things regarding the faith. This means that the Church can teach us the right moral positions on such things as in vitro fertilization, cloning and other issues that are not addressed in the Bible. After all, these issues of morality are necessary for our salvation, and God would not leave such important issues to be decided by us sinners without His divine assistance.

John 16:12 - Jesus had many things to say but the apostles couldn't bear them at that point. This demonstrates that the Church's infallible doctrine develops over time. All public Revelation was completed with the death of the last apostle, but the doctrine of God's Revelation develops as our minds and hearts are able to welcome and understand it. God teaches His children only as much as they can bear, for their own good.

John 16:13 - Jesus promises that the Spirit will "guide" the Church into all truth. Our knowledge of the truth develops as the Spirit guides the Church, and this happens over time.

Acts 15:27-28 - the apostles know that their teaching is being guided by the Holy Spirit. He protects the Church from deception.

Gal. 2:11-14 - non-Catholics sometimes use this verse to diminish Peter's evident authority over the Church. This is misguided. In this verse, Paul does not oppose Peter's teaching, but his failure to live by it. Infallibility (teaching without error) does not mean impeccability (living without sinning). Peter was the one who taught infallibly on the Gentile's salvation in Acts 10,11. With this rebuke, Paul is really saying "Peter, you are our leader, you teach infallibly, and yet your conduct is inconsistent with these facst. You of all people!" The verse really underscores, and not diminishes the importance of Peter's leadership in the Church.

Eph. 3:10 - the wisdom of God is known, even to the intellectually superior angels, through the Church (not the Scriptures). This is an incredible verse, for it tells us that God's infinite wisdom comes to us through the Church. For that to happen, the Church must be protected from teaching error on faith and morals (or she wouldn't be endowed with the wisdom of God).

Eph. 3:9 - this, in fact, is a mystery hidden for all ages - that God manifests His wisdom through one infallible Church for all people.

Eph. 3:20 - God's glory is manifested in the Church by the power of the Spirit that works within the Church's leaders. As a Father, God exalts His children to roles of leadership within the body of Christ.

Eph. 5:23-27, Col. 1:18 - Christ is the head of the Church, His Bride, for which He died to make it Holy and without blemish. There is only one Church, just as Christ only has one Bride.

Eph. 5:32 - Paul calls the Church a "mystery." This means that the significance of the Church as the kingdom of God in our midst cannot be understood by reason alone. Understanding the Church also requires faith. "Church" does not mean a building of believers. That is not a mystery. Non-catholics often view church as mere community, but not the supernatural mystery of Christ physically present among us.

1 Thess. 5:21 - Paul commands us to test everything. But we must have something against which to test. This requires one infallible guide that is available to us, and this guide is the Catholic Church, whose teachings on faith and morals have never changed.

1 Tim. 3:15 - Paul says the apostolic Church (not Scripture) is the pillar and foundation of the truth. But for the Church to be the pinnacle and foundation of truth, she must be protected from teaching error, or infallible. She also must be the Catholic Church, whose teachings on faith and morals have not changed for over 2,000 years. God loves us so much that He gave us a Church that infallibly teaches the truth so that we have the fullness of the means of salvation in His only begotten Son.

Matt. to Rev. - finally, we must note that not all Christian doctrines are explicit in Scripture (for example, the dogma of the Blessed Trinity). However, infallibility is strongly inferred from the foregoing passages. Protestants should ask themselves why they accept the Church's teaching on the three persons of the Trinity, the two natures of Christ in one divine person, and the New Testament canon of Scripture (all defined by the Catholic Church), but not other teachings regarding the Eucharist, Mary, the saints, and purgatory?

Something to ponder...I know you think I'm crazy...and I'm okay with that. You are on a journey just as everyone else is, and Christ knows exactly where we all are at this point in our lives. He doesn't chose YOU over ME (or vice versa). He loves us ALL...and wants us ALL to be in the ONE FOLD, with ONE SHEPHERD. Christ is the Shepherd, but Christ TOLD PETER (COMMANDED HIM, in fact) to FEED HIS SHEEP! Wow...a mere moral man to FEED CHRIST'S SHEEP. Wonder how Peter does that today? Why did Peter & the others chose Matth'ias to replace Judas' "OFFICE" (Acts 1:20)? I've yet to hear anyone explain this to me from the anti-catholic POV.

The great Augustine, whom I know that ALL Christians look to for the ancient faith, said ... "If the very order of episcopal succession is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them [the bishops of Rome] from Peter himself, to whom, as to one representing the whole Church, the Lord said,

[ServingHim]

Artemis was the virgin mother

I wonder then why God chose a 'virgin' to be His Mother? Interesting...

[ServingHim]

So where does Mary fit into the equation then ?

ummm...she was CHOSEN BY GOD to be the Mother of HIS BEGOTTEN SON (i.e. HIMSELF)...and ALL NATIONS SHALL CALL HER BLESSED.

Where does she fit into your 'equation'? :il:

[ServingHim]

DId you know that AUGUSTINE taught THIS about the Blessed Mother...

"In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave" (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).

"It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?" (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]).

"Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband" (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).

Also, Augustine taught this:

"A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers" (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).

"There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for the dead who are remembered. For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended" (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).

"At the Lord

[ServingHim]

How is this not idolatry?

ServingHim: Since you are Catholic, you believe the deuterocannon (a.k.a. the Apocrypha) to be authoritative. Why then do Catholics ignore it's exhortations?

Baruch 6:3-12

And now in Babylon you will see borne upon men's shoulders gods of silver and gold and wood, which cast fear upon the pagans. Take care that you yourselves do not imitate their alien example and stand in fear of them, when you see the crowd before them and behind worshiping them. Rather, say in your hearts, "You, O YHWH, are to be worshiped!"; for my angel is with you, and he is the custodian of your lives. Their tongues are smoothed by woodworkers; they are covered with gold and silver-but they are a fraud, and cannot speak. People bring gold, as to a maiden in love with ornament, and furnish crowns for the heads of their gods. Then sometimes the priests take the silver and gold from their gods and spend it on themselves, or give part of it to the harlots on the terrace. They trick them out in garments like men, these gods of silver and gold and wood; but though they are wrapped in purple clothing, they are not safe from corrosion or insects. They wipe their faces clean of the house dust which is thick upon them.

Indeed they do these things in Babylon. Look at the links above. Seriously now.

1 Peter 5:12-13

With the help of Silas [a.k.a. Silvanus], whom I regard as a faithful brother, I have written to you briefly, encouraging you and testifying that this is the true grace of God. Stand fast in it. She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark.

(Peter wrote this when he was in Rome; we know this because Silas was last in Rome as we track him through Acts, and also because the writings of the early church fathers record that Peter wrote this from Rome.) She who is in Babylon has been unfaithful, engaging in spiritual prostitution to goddesses of old.

The Origins of Marian Idolatry

The Catholic church declares that Mary is the Queen of Heaven:

Pope Pius XII,

in the Papal Encyclical Ad Caeli Reginam

(On Proclaiming the Queenship of Mary. Promulgated on October 11, 1954)

"From the earliest ages of the Catholic Church a Christian people, whether in time of triumph or more especially in time of crisis, has addressed prayers of petition and hymns of praise and veneration to the Queen of Heaven. [what a brazen lie.] And never has that hope wavered which they placed in the Mother of the Divine King, Jesus Christ; nor has that faith ever failed by which we are taught that Mary, the Virgin Mother of God, reigns with a mother's solicitude over the entire world, just as she is crowned in heavenly blessedness with the glory of a Queen . . . Our tongue cannot worthily praise thee, O Lady; for thou who hast borne Christ the king art exalted above the seraphim. . . Hail, O Queen of the world; hail, O Mary, Queen of us all.'

In doing so, the Catholic church has co-opted a practice God has condemned. Look:

Jeremiah 44:16-17

"We will not listen to the message you have spoken to us in the name of YHWH! We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our fathers, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem."

A catholic bishop burning incense to the Queen of Heaven:

The declaration that Mary was the "Mother of God" happened at the council of Ephesis, with the support of a large party of devotees of Mary. The writings of the early church fathers say that after Jesus comitted Mary to John's care, the two of them settled in Ephesis, the location of the Temple of the goddess Artemis (one of the seven wonders of the ancient world):

Acts 19:23-28

About that time there arose a great disturbance about the Way. A silversmith named Demetrius, who made silver shrines of Artemis, brought in no little business for the craftsmen. He called them together, along with the workmen in related trades, and said: "Men, you know we receive a good income from this business. And you see and hear how this fellow Paul has convinced and led astray large numbers of people here in Ephesus and in practically the whole province of Asia. He says that man-made gods are no gods at all. There is danger not only that our trade will lose its good name, but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis will be discredited, and the goddess herself, who is worshiped throughout the province of Asia and the world, will be robbed of her divine majesty."

[Guest LadyC]

Artemis was the virgin mother

I wonder then why God chose a 'virgin' to be His Mother? Interesting...

so that there would be no doubt that it was the Son of God, not the son of joseph.

Matt. 18:17-18 - the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith.

guess i'll accept that as your answer to my question.

for the record, let's put that in context.

15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

verses 17 and 18 are not saying the church is above scripture. not in any way, shape or form. scripture is the final authority. this passage is referring to the settlement of disputes.

furthermore there is nothing about the church being mystical. the church is the body of Christ, of which we are ALL members, you, me, bob, etc. God's church is a body of believers, not an institution.

Romans 12

4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

1 Corinthians 10

16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

1 Corinthians 12

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

i found a very interesting article that defines the origions of the "church"... my interest was captured by where the word "church" comes from.

II. Beginning Marks

A. Name. The English term "church" is supposed to be a derivative of the Greek term kuriakos, meaning "of or belonging to the Lord." It is used to translate the Greek term ekklesia, which occurs 115 times in the New Testament, with all but four occurrences (Acts 7:38; 19:32,39,41) referring to God's people of the new covenant. Ekklesia is a compound formed from the Greek preposition ek (meaning "out of'" and the Greek noun klesis (meaning "a calling"). Hence, the "church" is literally "that which is called out of the realm of sin and darkness into the light and kingdom of Jesus Christ (Col. 1:13; II Thess. 2:14). It is noteworthy that Jesus used the term "church" only three times in two different passages, but His usage of the term illustrates the two basic senses in which it is used in the New Testament. When He said, "I will build My church" (Matt. 16:18), He used the term in the universal sense, including all of His disciples throughout the world. When He said that differences between brethren should ultimately be taken to the church (Matt. 18:15-17), He used the term in the local sense, referring to a body of His disciples within a particular geographical area who band together for purposes of work and worship. Sometimes modifying phrases (I Cor. 1:2; Rom. 16:16), or different terms (I Cor. 3:16; Eph. 1:22,23; Col. 1:13), are used in reference to the church to emphasize different aspects of it.

by the way, glad you changed your mind and decided to stay.

[Guest LadyC]

by the way, that's a whole lot of stuff about what augustine taught. i don't caure much for what augustine had to say since he and saint thomas argued that certain marriages that are favorable in the eyes of God promoted family loyalties at the expense of universal love and social harmony, thus being largely responsible for the roman catholic church creating a canon law prohibiting such marriages... a "church-made" (i.e. "man-made") law which was contrary to God's law. that in itself is enough reason for me to not put much weight on augustine.

[Guest Berkana]

Is Mary the "mother of God"?

do YOU believe that Mary IS the Mother of God?

Edited August 24, 2004 by Berkana

[Guest Berkana]

The Roman Catholic Church does not have exclusive apostolic authority

. . .The Church is Infallible and Supernatural - The Church IS CHRIST, THE SPOUSE, HIS BODY, the TWO BECOME ONE!!!!

. . .

Acts 9:2; 22:4; 24:14,22 - the early Church is identified as the "Way" prophesied in Isaiah 35:8 where fools will not err therein.

. . . Matt. 16:18 - Jesus promises the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church. Since the Catholic Church was the only Church which existed up until the Reformation, those who follow the Protestant reformers call Christ a liar by saying that Hades did prevail.

Matt. 16:19 - for Jesus to give Peter and the apostles, mere human beings, the authority to bind in heaven what they bound on earth requires infallibility. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the holiness of the person receiving the gift.

This too is completely erroneous: you can't assume that the Catholic church was what was spoken of when the church is spoken of in the Bible.

Originally, the church was universal, and undivided; the Roman Catholic church was merely one branch of the church after multiple schisms. Yet the other ancient branches of the church, such as the Coptics, the Epthiopians, the Assyrians, and the Eastern Orthodoxy, who are as much "apostolic" as the Catholic church, reject many of the dogmas of Roman Catholicism, and claim apostolic authority in doing so. So who's right?

As for whether or not Peter was the Rock that Christ built his church on, I was taught this as I was raised Catholic, but having looked into the writings of the Church fathers, I find that this is completely at odds with what the church fathers taught. (<-- I challenge all of you to read the entirety of this linked article, especially Catholics.)

You cite that Jesus said that the gates of Hades will not prevail against the church, but you misinterpret this: gates are not weapons. We didn't go to Iraq to find "gates of mass destruction". Gates keep people bound; what Jesus was refering to was the church breaking in through the gates of death ("Hades") holding the people of the world and saving people out of that with the Gospel, the keys to the Kingdom. The "gates of Hades" cannot prevail against the Church busting in and saving people out of it by the Gospel; Jesus never gave Peter literal keys to the kingdom; Jesus gave Peter the teaching of the Gospel. The only other time Jesus is recorded to have refered to "keys" was when He refered to religious teachings:

Luke 11:52

"Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering."

The Gospel and Jesus' teachings are the keys to the kingdom; that which is loosed by faith in the Gospel will have been loosed in Heaven (literal grammatic translation), and that which is bound by rejecting the Gospel will have been bound in Heaven.

The Roman Catholic church is not infallible; it is arrogant, and in it's pride, it errs and refuses to be corrected even by the scriptures.

Edited August 24, 2004 by Berkana

[Guest LadyC]

do YOU believe that Mary IS the Mother of God?