Free Will and Predestination

[BobTriez]

As for free will, what is free about it. God says, "Do as I tell you or go to Hell."

Where is the freedom in that? Coercion is being applied is it not. A free will choice has no threat involved otherwise it is not free.

If you drop the free and leave choice then I still say we have no choice to make in and of ourselves. We are incapbale of the correct choice even when we know it is in our best interest.

Ya lost me here.....

[johnP]

Hello Called.

Adam was free to eat of any tree but one. Do not touch that tree was the command.

Where is the free will in this? Adam made a choice but he was not given the choice. He was commanded not to.

But, it is a difficult question.

If Adam had free will what was it worth?

A bit of Calvin.

It is true that our father Adam was created after the image of God [Gen. 1:26] and that he was excellent in his first state, but after the coming in of sin we all became utterly helpless, so that even Adam did not have any strength in himself, and his free will that was given him served him to no other purpose but to make him the more inexcusable. For he fell wilfully and through his own malice. But by this we see what sort of constancy he had in him, for, having been created with the utmost care [

[johnP]

Hello Bob.

As for free will, what is free about it. God says, "Do as I tell you or go to Hell."

Where is the freedom in that? Coercion is being applied is it not. A free will choice has no threat involved otherwise it is not free.

What I was saying is that God does not give us a choice whether to accept Him or not.

He says that if we do not do as He says we will go to Hell. This is a punishment for not doing as He says.

I am a father of three. If I tell my children to do something I do not expect them to decide whether to obey me or not, I will enforce my will upon them with threats.

They have no free will in the matter.

God's like that.

If you drop the free and leave choice then I still say we have no choice to make in and of ourselves. We are incapbale of the correct choice even when we know it is in our best interest.

By 'correct choice' I mean to choose God.

We are sinners. All choices we make will be against God. Even when we use His name in religion we act against Him. Romans 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.

We cannot submit in our natural selfs. The choice we make is always away from Him as sinners.

Our choices are dictated to us by our fallen nature or by the Spirit of God, not by us. Gal 5:16-18 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

Does that help in any way Bob?

Kyle.

We are incapbale of the correct choice even when we know it is in our best interest.

A spelling mistake!

Incapable : lacking capacity, ability, or qualification for the purpose or end in view:

Just to clarify this point because I used a similar expression with regard to Pharaoh.

It should have been possible for Pharaoh, when he felt the pain Moses inflicted, to grant his request in a natural way.

I did not mean that he could have chosen to do God's will willingly.

[Guest Called]

I guess I must be really slow. I just don't get what your trying to say...

Adam was free to eat of any tree but one. Do not touch that tree was the command.

Where is the free will in this? Adam made a choice but he was not given the choice. He was commanded not to.

The free will is in the fact that Adam could choose to obey God or to not obey God. I believe that God put that tree in the Garden out of love. He put it there to give Adam a choice to follow Him. God didn't want Adam to be a puppet, he wanted Adam to WANT to follow Him and love Him.

The rest of your post is beyond me. I don't get it! Sorry!

So are you saying that we never have free will? Is this always or just when we get saved that the free will goes away? Sorry, but I am just really confused here.

[johnP]

Sorry Called.

I will try to respond later. I will spend some time reviewing the posts to see if I can make myself more understandable.

So are you saying that we never have free will?

That is what I am saying.

Neither before, during or after we become Christians.

johnp

[Guest Called]

Sorry Called.

I will try to respond later. I will spend some time reviewing the posts to see if I can make myself more understandable.

So are you saying that we never have free will?

That is what I am saying.

Neither before, during or after we become Christians.

johnp

Can you give me scriptures to back this up whenever you get time? Thanks!

[Trinity]

He used the Garden story to show we have freewill.

[Guest Called]

John

Let me say this. I believe that we are predestined in the fact that God knows who is going to chose Him or not, God is omniscient! However this does not negate the fact that we have that choice, we can follow Him or not.

Let me give you an example. I have a new puppy and this puppy keeps continuing to bite me. Now, I know that I am going to slap this puppy on the nose if she keeps biting, but if the puppy chooses not to bite, I will not slap her.

In the same way I keep living in my sin and God knows that if I keep on sinning, I am going to hell. All I have to do is stop and repent and turn to God and I will be saved. That is not predestination, that is God being omniscient, God doesn't have some master list that from the beginning of time He just picked whomever He wanted to get saved. That just doesn't sound like love to me.

I still feel that the verses from Genesis show that we do have free will.

[Orr v'emet]

John

Let me say this.  I believe that we are predestined in the fact that God knows who is going to chose Him or not, God is omniscient!  However this does not negate the fact that we have that choice, we can follow Him or not.

Let me give you an example.  I have a new puppy and this puppy keeps continuing to bite me.  Now, I know that I am going to slap this puppy on the nose if she keeps biting, but if the puppy chooses not to bite, I will not slap her.

In the same way I keep living in my sin and God knows that if I keep on sinning, I am going to hell.  All I have to do is stop and repent and turn to God and I will be saved.  That is not predestination, that is God being omniscient,  God doesn't have some master list that from the beginning of time He just picked whomever He wanted to get saved.  That just doesn't sound like love to me. 

I still feel that the verses from Genesis show that we do have free will. 

I completely agree here Called. The bible says "For God so loved the world..." not those He chose beforehand.

2Peter 3:9 says: The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Doesn't sound like God is picking and choosing to me. Jesus died for all. God wants everyone to come to repentence. It's up to us to choose to follow Him or not.

[Guest Called]

2 Peter 3:9 says: The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Doesn't sound like God is picking and choosing to me. Jesus died for all. God wants everyone to come to repentence. It's up to us to choose to follow Him or not.

THAT is the verse I was looking for, couldn't find it! Thanks!