Free Will and Predestination

[johnP]

What hinders you man use your free will?

Either it is free and you can stop.

Or it is free and you will not stop

Or it is beyond your control to do the will of God without the will of God present in your will!

Why pray for anyone? Lord save my wife, my husband, my child unless we hope He will interfer with their wills?

I will intercede for you but I cannot until you submit to interference in your will. I respect the Lord too much to pray for something He does not want to do.

John 3:16 That's what

I know that but your not different are you to any of us?

But you told Him not to interfer with your will and He shows you your sin and does not help you to overcome because you told Him not to interfer with your will. What's a God gotta do? You told Him He defers and you are what?

Surrender man you are helpless and you are surrounded.

But;

You are as white as snow to the one that says He loves you!

johnp

[BobTriez]

What hinders you man use your free will?

Either it is free and you can stop.

Or it is free and you will not stop

Or it is beyond your control to do the will of God without the will of God present in your will!

Why pray for anyone? Lord save my wife, my husband, my child unless we hope He will interfer with their wills?

I will intercede for you but I cannot until you submit to interference in your will. I respect the Lord too much to pray for something He does not want to do.

John 3:16 That's what

I know that but your not different are you to any of us?

But you told Him not to interfer with your will and He shows you your sin and does not help you to overcome because you told Him not to interfer with your will. What's a God gotta do? You told Him He defers and you are what?

Surrender man you are helpless and you are surrounded.

But;

You are as white as snow to the one that says He loves you!

johnp

Ok, since there seems to be some avoidance to the topic at hand here, let's not mince words and just get right to the heart of it then shall we ? Do you feel an urgent need to repent when you sin or can it wait until YOU are ready ? My response will depend on your answer.

God bless,

Bob

[Khristeeanos]

johnP,

I would appreciate it if you would do me a favor and research out these points which I will make and see if you come to the same conclusion I have.

1. The original church (the one established at Pentecost in AD 33 according to Acts chapter 2) did not disagree on one thing but had, "everything in common" (Acts 2:44).

2. At today, those who claim to follow Jesus the Messiah do not have "everything in common."

3. This means that at some point AFTER the original church, false teachings were introduced into the church.

4. I have found that with the exception of one man, who was a Roman Catholic, the doctrine that you propose here in this thread did not exist until the man by the name of John Calvin (1509-1564).

5. John Calvin tortured Michael Servetus (on October 27, 1553) by supporting his slow (approx. 30 minutes) burning at the stake and therefore could not have been a Christian according to the following verse:

1 John 3:15

Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

+ + + +

All that being said, I would like to ask a few sub-questions.

5a. How can a doctrine be true when it didn't exist in the church until just a few hundred years ago?

5b. (more of a personal observation than a direct question meant for you to pray about, as I have)

Is this doctrine more important to you than your personal relationship with Jesus Christ?

JohnP, maybe I missed your response to this post. Sorry if I did. Please repost it. If not, please research and respond.

Thanks!

[Qun Mang]

Thanks for the words people. You are right John that I am not special in the regard that I sin. We all do. Sometimes self-centeredness clouds me to think that my sin is somehow worse than others when it is not.

Do you feel an urgent need to repent when you sin or can it wait until YOU are ready ?

I know this question is meant for John, but I just want to say that when I commit one of those sins I repeat over and over I don't feel that I can even face God, let alone repent right away. As I said it sometimes takes me a few days to repent because after I lose the feeling of not being able to face God, I sometimes just forget about Him altogether for a short time (and then I have to repent that too...). I guess I wait until I am ready. I know it should be the other answer though.

Don't tell Him you are sorry and you hate your sin

WHY ?!?!? It's true!

You love your sin and do not want to stop. Is that not so?

No it is not so! - I ABHORE my sins and I do want to stop!

Let me just say that both of you are right. As I said, I do hate the sin that I do. And I'm glad I do because that shows that God is working in me and convicting me. At the same time John is right that I love the sin. I must or I would not keep commiting it. So while my soul grieves it, my flesh loves it. That's the unfortunate reality of sin I think. If I could only get my flesh to hate it as much as my heart does I would be set.

I have often prayed for God to help me with a procrastination problem (which is a passivity problem really) and I guess motivation is also a symptom of passivity. I will pray for it.

And I apologize for bringing this problem of mine to this discussion and sidetracking it a little. Yes, it was given in the context of predestination since it really does bother me with the way my heart has been, but it really belongs in an accountability group. Unfortunately I have been without a small group for over a year now but I have finally taken steps to get back in one.

[johnP]

Bob.

Oi! Who says I sin?

Anyway, you tell me not to speak like a Calvinist then tell me I seem to be avoiding the subject! You have constrained my answers Bob.

Here is part of the reply waited on.

So please define God's love to me.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails... 1 Cor 13:4-8.

And I believe Him when He says this to me. I believe Him.

There is no guilt now for what we have done or will do!

Jesus took our guilt away on the cross for some reason.

When we feel a guilty conscience God is showing us our sin to the degree that He has decided.

At the moment I have no guilty conscience. Either I have sheared it or I am ok with Him, who knows the answer to that one? Jesus died for my sin. I carry on as normal but I don't think for a second I am holy in and of myself. I am a sinner.

Do you feel an urgent need to repent when you sin or can it wait until YOU are ready ?

Why repent before you are ready? That would be a lie and self deception with the greatest of respect Bob.

That is what I was saying, He does not want you to repent but be honest. What you have is fear trying to deflect a wrathful God and that is not what He is to you. He loves you and is patient and kind. This must be true because you think you can go to Hell after you have been forgiven. For what sin then? Jesus died for your sins. You disbelieve that. Then you live in fear, the expectation of judgement and you think you are so sinful even Jesus don't like you. That is sin. You don't feel guilty about calling God a God of wrath when He says He loves you, why not?

I repent when He gives me the ability to do it properly in love and respect and then it is nice because He loves us.

If there is fear in me I will not repent. It would be a waste of time and worse. I feel fear sometimes but it is just forgetting for a moment that anyone could love me with this completeness, this total dedication. I am not my own, I belong to another and He belongs to me. When I feel fear that I am not doing enough or loving enough or good enough I realise that my faith has somehow switched itself off. I just flick it back on. I believe He died for my sins. Because I know I am not good enough or doing enough or loving enough and I thank God I know I am not.

I will wait but I will tell Him what I have been doing and ask Him to purify me from such and such if He chooses to, if it upsets Him. I can't do it myself I am not strong enough to lift the weight Jesus put on His shoulders for me.

I don't know what is worser? Where do I start, with the thing that causes me the most grief or the thing that causes Him the most grief?

Will that do for now? I will be a bit busy today so bear with my slowness.

My response will depend on your answer.

Well that not very nice of you is it? To blame me for what you will do!

God bless.

johnp

[BobTriez]

My response will depend on your answer.

Well that not very nice of you is it? To blame me for what you will do!

God bless.

johnp

Ok, let's start over here....I don't want this to be confrontational ok ? That was never my intent. Pehaps I worded that wrong and you misunderstood.....so, in order to make this fruitful and productive, we need to agree that ONLY the Bible is right and NOT some church doctrine or teaching....can we agree on that ? If not we simply can not move forward

God bless,

Bob

[johnP]

Hello Qun Mang.

...that I am not special in the regard that I sin. We all do...

It's as I said, it is not that we all do sin, it is that we all are sin. As we are we do, so what we are is the problem not what we do.

I know this question is meant for John...

Yes I know what you mean. But it is deluding yourself because He remembers as if it was now. You might have thought you have made up for it and He is less wrathful now but He never was wrathful to you. He loves you and you behave as if He don't. You give Him time to cool down like I used to when I was a kid and I was in trouble with my dad!

If He was wrathful saying sorry now is of no help, you should have been sorry before you did what you did.

Unless a person accepts the free gift of forgiveness there is no sorry for sin.

And I am sure you have. You are born again if you have been to Jesus for the forgiveness of sins.

You must accept that He has forgiven you your sins. That is faith and faith alone saves. You have the faith now use it. Apply it in believing He forgave you.

...and then I have to repent that too...

And when you come to realise that even your repentance needs to be repented of you will be free.

And I'm glad I do because that shows that God is working in me and convicting me.

Absolutely right. Now He wants you to tell Him what you are like so that He can purify you and clean you up.

If I could only get my flesh to hate it as much as my heart does I would be set.

You can't do that it is stronger than you, If you could Jesus died for nothing, it has your will at it's beck and call. It drives you. Jesus is going to destroy it.

You look at yourself, look to Jesus. You know what you are like. He knows what you are like. But He says He loves you anyway regardless of what you are like. Regardless of what you do because what you do was taken into account when He died for you. He loves you and forgives you.

And I apologize for bringing this problem of mine to this discussion and sidetracking it a little.

It is not sidetracking the thread because this is the heart of the gospel. It is to do with faith and that has everything to do with us. It cover every part of our lives.

Romans Rom 7:24-8:2

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

Let us face Him as Father not judge.

I am sorry it is a bit rushed at the end. I have to go out.

See you later.

johnp

[johnP]

Bob.

I have to go out now.

See you later mate.

We are brothers lets find out our Father. That's all that counts.

johnp

[johnP]

Hello Dime.

I must go out. I will reply later.

Thanks.

johnp

[johnP]

I would appreciate it if you would do me a favor and research out these points which I will make and see if you come to the same conclusion I have.

1. The original church (the one established at Pentecost in AD 33 according to Acts chapter 2) did not disagree on one thing but had, "everything in common" (Acts 2:44).

2. At today, those who claim to follow Jesus the Messiah do not have "everything in common."

3. This means that at some point AFTER the original church, false teachings were introduced into the church.

4. I have found that with the exception of one man, who was a Roman Catholic, the doctrine that you propose here in this thread did not exist until the man by the name of John Calvin (1509-1564).

5. John Calvin tortured Michael Servetus (on October 27, 1553) by supporting his slow (approx. 30 minutes) burning at the stake and therefore could not have been a Christian according to the following verse:

QUOTE 

1 John 3:15

Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

+ + + +

All that being said, I would like to ask a few sub-questions.

5a. How can a doctrine be true when it didn't exist in the church until just a few hundred years ago?

5b. (more of a personal observation than a direct question meant for you to pray about, as I have)

Is this doctrine more important to you than your personal relationship with Jesus Christ? 

Sorry Dime.

This has come as a surprise.

I know I replied but for the life of me I cannot find it.

My apologises, I might have lost it tidying the desktop so here is a new and revised version.

1. No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval.

So it does not mean 'everything' in this sense does it?

2. By way of 'goods' do you mean? Because it does not mean doctrine does it? No, but I am sure we give to those in need when we see it.

3. False teaching was around as the Apostle Paul was preaching. Jesus said there would be weeds sown and many. Matt 13:24-30

4. If you are in doubt as to the scriptural integrity of the thing called Calvinism then bring your scriptures and I will bring mine. All things are decided by the scripture and nothing is decided outside the scripture.

5. Calvin was a minister in Geneva. He was not a civil magistrate.

After the arrest of Servetus on the charge of heresy he was given the choice of being extradited to stand trail in Vienna where heresy charges were pending over his book on the denial of the Trinity. He thought his best bet lay in facing a court in Geneva because of the opposition to Calvin there.

Calvin was called as the chief prosecution witness and gave evidence against him.

It would be a strange day when a chief prosecution witness was also the judge, jury and executioner would it not?

We are not discussing Calvin but scripture? And scripture says that we are held responsible for bearing false witness. With respect I suggest you get more infomation on this subject before blindly rushing to judgement. 1 John 3:15. The sword has two edges.

5a. This is answered in number 1.

5b. Do you then seperate Christ from the desciption of Himself in the bible? That's clever.

What doctrine is taught in scripture is what should be believed. How can you have Jesus without doctrine, tell me how? I believe my Jesus is taught in scripture where does yours come from? If you say scripture then bring your proofs and I will show you that you are wrong.

johnp.