Am I'm allowed to asks hard questions?

[ksalzar]

Greetings ksalzar,

This may or may not be appropriate. You need to pary about it and figure out what God wants.

If you leave every church that teaches you incorrectly or handles things incorrectly you will end up churchless until Jesus return. For no church is perfect, the correct decision might also be to stay at this church and serve it by stimulating a better study of God's word.

We are not at church only to be fed, but also to feed.

For those who have been given a ministerial obligation, such as Pastor, they are also subject to a greater responsibility AND judgment at the Bema Seat of Christ.

Certainly, I have yet to find "the perfect church", and there appears to be less and less of them. I glean a lot from such men as Hank Hannagraff, Charles Swindoll, Woodrow Kroll, R. C. Sproul, D. James Kennedy, yet they each have some point(s) upon which I believe they fail the true meanings of the scriptures.

Yet, I have been to many DEAD churches. One in particular that I attended in Washington state, as my wife and I sat in the pew to a DEAD, DEAD, DEAD message, I looked over the congregation AND in with my "spiritual eyes", I SAW it was full of DEAD CORPSES. I say to those who have "left the true Gospel of Jesus Christ" FLEE THOSE CHURCHES, find one that teaches and preaches as Christ or HIS disciples preached and taught.

We have so many recorded MIRACLES and miraculous healings in the Bible, it takes only a FOOL to deny that they exist today.

YES, I HAVE PRAYED ABOUT IT. And it turns out God is RIGHT.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Hmm, call me a foolish skeptic then. Do I think God can heal people of physical illnesses today, most definitely. Do I think God could give specific people the ability to heal others of their physical illnesses today, most definitely. Have I seen this in my experience, no.

Now My point was not to cause problems, only to point us back to scripture. I just want to make sure that we are giving biblical support for our responses to help out here.

Perhaps you could defend your position on this issue biblically to me, so that I may learn from you. I think this would be much more productive than a statement such as:

We have so many recorded MIRACLES and miraculous healings in the Bible, it takes only a FOOL to deny that they exist today.

If you notice we are not in the day that the New Testament took place. Your jump is without support here, I'm not saying it's wrong. I just want you to support your position biblically.

Also just because the minister put forth this as his position on this particular issue does not mean that this specific church is "spiritually dead" as you put it. Which was my whole point, that we should not jump to conclusions to fast.

[BoldlyProclaimingChrist]

This is my understanding of healing. If you or anyone lays hands on someone and prays for healing and they are healed, I would not be so quick to dub you a "healer". I don't believe this is a special gift given to a select few because it has nothing to do with us but the Lord only. The Lord simply chooses whom He wishes to work through if He wants to heal a particular person. What if the Lord wanted to heal someone but the "wrong" person layed hands on that person? Would the Lord not heal that person just because a different person laid hands on them? Do you think the Lord waits around until the most qualified (not by works remember) person lays hands on that person? I also believe that the Lord can choose to heal someone even if the person/pastor laying hands on them is not of God. The Lord in His mercy can heal anyone He pleases regardless of who lays hands on them, be it a brand new Christian or even a false Christian. Even if the healee has wrong or strange beliefs, I still believe the Lord in His mercy can and will heal that person if He chooses. All the glory goes to the Lord.

This again is my understanding of this - this is not gospel obviously. Please let's not get into a boxing match :il:

[nebula]

Have you read the accounts in the Gospels where there were a couple of towns where Jesus "could not perform miracles in them because of their unbelief"? When a blind man was brought to Him for healing in one of these towns, He had to physically take the man outside of the town so He could heal him.

This is our Western society today, I am convinced of. Our society is supersaturated with unbelief. It's a part of our culture.

I know of people in my own church who do not have testimonies of praying over anyone for healing and the person being healed - over here. But, when they got back from a mission trip to India or some other second and third world countries, they reported many people being healed when they layed hands on them and prayed for healing.

Yet, they still aren't reporting healings while praying the same prayers over here!

So, this is what I believe the answer to your question is. There is just way too much unbelief in our society for "regular healings" to occur. Not that some don't occur, becuase I know some do. It is just much, much harder to get past all the unbelief.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Ksalzar,

If you notice we are not in the day that the New Testament took place. Your jump is without support here, I'm not saying it's wrong. I just want you to support your position biblically.

2 Corinthians 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

James 5:13-14 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. 14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. 16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

On the one hand you say the NT was FOR BACK THEN. Then you want me to supply BIBLICAL ANSWERS FOR NOW? If the above is NOT sufficient, then take it up with God. The Pastor in question is DENYING what the scriptures are very clear about. He should be thrown out of the ministry, but since that is nigh on impossible, then the saints of God WHO BELIEVE, should LEAVE. Jesus said:

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[ksalzar]

Acts 19:11-16

11 And God was doing extraordingary miracles by the hands of Paul,

12 so that even handkerchiefs or aprons that had touched his skin were carried away to the sick, and their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.

13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists undertook to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, "I adjure you by the Jesus, whom Paul proclaims."

14 Seven sons of a Jewish high priest named Sceva were doing this.

15 But the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus i know, and Paul I recognize, but who are you?"

16 And the man in whom was the evil spirit leaped on them, mastered all of them and overpowerd them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

Are there any accounts in the Bible of God doing miracles through people who do not have faith in Him?

[ksalzar]

Greetings Ksalzar,

If you notice we are not in the day that the New Testament took place. Your jump is without support here, I'm not saying it's wrong. I just want you to support your position biblically.

2 Corinthians 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

James 5:13-14 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. 14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. 16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

On the one hand you say the NT was FOR BACK THEN. Then you want me to supply BIBLICAL ANSWERS FOR NOW? If the above is NOT sufficient, then take it up with God. The Pastor in question is DENYING what the scriptures are very clear about. He should be thrown out of the ministry, but since that is nigh on impossible, then the saints of God WHO BELIEVE, should LEAVE. Jesus said:

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

The subject in question is whether or not the power to heal which was given through the holy spirit by Christ to the disciples continued on unto today.

I said nothing of the NT not being aplicable today, perhaps you misunderstood me.

So according to James 5 every person who has a person of faith pray over them will always be healed? Is this what you are saying?

[ksalzar]

It is interesting to note that right after the verses quoted above from James 5 we see this example used:

James 5:17-18

Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again, and heaven gave rain, and the earth bore its fruit.

Which is tied in with what I have already put forwarded concerning what Jesus said:

Luke 4

25 But I say to you in truth, there were many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the sky was shut up for three years and six months, when a great famine came over all the land;

26 and Elijah was sent to none of them but only to Zarephath, in the land of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow.

27 And there were many lepers in Israel in the time of the prophet Elisha, and none of them was cleansed, but only Naaman the Syrian.

James is known as a practical book. I do not think James point is that everyone will be healed physically on this earth, for that is in direct contrast to what Jesus said.

A prime example would be Jesus in the garden praying not to die on the cross, praying to be spared of this suffering. That prayer was not answered, and we know that Jesus submitted to the Father's will. Surely if there was a person who's prayer would be answered based on their faith we agree it was Jesus.

My point is that, as I said ealrier, it is good to pray to be healed and have people pray for you to be healed; but it is not always God's will.

Edited August 22, 2004 by ksalzar

[Guest Called]

Matthew 21

20 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!

21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

[ksalzar]

Matthew 21

20 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!

21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

[Guest shadow2b]

-John.14.vs.12---------

-He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works

-than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father------

-JESUS clearly states:{HE}-Each & EVERY--SINGLE--SOLITARY--INDIVIDUAL-

-BELIEVER--SHALL BE ABLE TO DO EACH & EVERY--SINGLE--*MIRACLE* THAT HE

-DID--&--EVEN--MORE--*MIRACULOUS*--THINGS*-SHALL--EACH--&--EVERY--

-SINGLE--SOLITARY--INDIVIDUAL--BELIEVER--BE ABLE--TO-DO--THRU--THE--

-NAME--OF--JESUS--&--UPON--THE--AUTHORITY--OF--JESUS--NAME----

-LUKE.10.vs.19-------

-Behold,I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the

-power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

-Kinda reminds me of Peter walking on the water--As long as Peter had his eyes on JESUS he was ENabled{by the Authority of JESUS--Word--"Come"} to walk ON the water- Until he let the "Sound"& the "Size"of the waves--the sound of the storm "Scare" him...

--Doubting can cause trouble in our relationship and our

-walk with our Savior.To doubt is to be inclined to disbelief or to be

-fearful or suspicious of.

-MATT.14:vss.22.Thru.33-------

-And straightway Jesus constrained his

-disciples to get into a ship, and to go before him unto

-the other side,while he sent the multitudes away.And when he had sent the

-multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and

-when the evening was come, he was there alone. But the ship was now in the

-midst of -the sea, tossed with waves: for the wind was contrary.And in the fourth

-watch of the night Jesus went unto them,walking on the seaAnd when the disciples

-saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and

-they cried out for fear. But straightway Jesus spake unto them,

-saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid. And Peter answered him and said,

-Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.

-And he said, Come. And when Peter was

-come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.

-But when he saw the wind boisterous,

-he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.And

-immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand,

-and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith,

-wherefore didst thou doubt? And when they were come into the ship, the wind

-ceased. Then they that were in the ship came and

-worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.