Unlock Two Passages and Attain Wisdom

[oak]

Let me try to simplify this if it

[Hunterpoet]

First I don

[Bold Believer]

First I don’t have an answer and can only speculate and will not be a guide. But maybe, some of you out there have a better understanding of the question and can help me on my journey. Also, even if you are not a Bible scholar, you are welcome and I would be interested in what you have to say. Where do theses passages lead us to?

The scriptural passages:

And he said to them, I saw Satan fall like lightening from ( Lk 10:18)

Now war arose in heaven. Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon…the great dragon was thrown down… he was thrown down to earth. (Rev12:7-9)

a) Now is it possible for evil to be cast out twice?

b) Is Christ showing His divinity – For God there is timeless and we humans don't fully grasp this concept.

c) Is Revelations as some contend a book of what was, is and will come?

d) Also consider when the Rev (12:11*) says, that Michael will win due to the blood of the Lamb; however Christ when He speaks has not yet been crucified.

Yours,

Oak

Corrected*

Same event.

Revelation (no 's') 12 is an overview of the things leading up to Messiah's birth. It isn't eschatological at all. It's there to set the stage for the later judgment of Israel in AD 70.

In verse 1 & 2 you see faithful Israel, about to deliver Messiah into the world.

In verse 3, you see Satan preparing to try and kill him, using Rome (beast with 7 heads and 10 horns). Satan embodies Rome as a nation (see Ch 13), that is, God gives Satan permission to give Rome authority. As we are told in Matthew, Herod was ready to kill Jesus. Herod (the Roman tetrarch) wanted Jesus dead because he was concerned about competition for rule of the area. (obviously, the concern was incited by the devil, but part of God's overall prophetic plan.)

Verse 4 says that Satan's tail (him being a dragon and all) drags a third of the angels from heaven. The word used for sweeps away or drags is syto meaning to haul away to punishment. (Interesting choice of words in the light of the fact that at the end of Revelation, they are all thrown in Gehenna on judgment day for what they DO here in Ch 12: rebel against their Creator and Lord.) It is the devil who delivers up his very own little army of rebellious angels to their very punishment.

Verse 5 is Jesus being born, and John mentions that He is the One who will rule the nations with a rod of iron, and that he is caught up God and to His throne (Mt 28/Acts 1).

Verse 6 tells us that the woman flees into the wilderness where a place has been prepared for her by God for a period of 1260 days. This is a very prominent number in Revelation. In this case, it's a look back at the flight of Mary (and Joseph) to Egypt as outlined in Matthew. It's the only place in Scripture that indicates how long Jesus and the Family stayed in Egypt. It's believed that Jesus was a young child (evidenced in Scripture by the use of the word paidion, meaning a very young child) somewhere between 1 or 2 years old when the Magi came to the house (not the manger) of Joseph. If this is true, then Jesus would have been around 4 or 5 when Joseph took the family to Nazareth.

Verse 7 tells us that there was war in heaven and that Michael and his angels threw the devil out of heaven because they were not strong enough to win the fight. This doesn't contradict the earlier verse that Satan drew 1/3 of the angels and cast them to the earth, it tells us HOW that casting down was accomplished. Satan drew those angels down and cast them to the earth by the fact of losing the war to Michael. Satan started a fight he couldn't win and got cast out of heaven for it. Michael did it, but Satan initiated it. This all occurs while Jesus is still a young child. The entire fight seems to be over Messiah being born, and not over control of heaven as is sometimes assumed. Why do I believe this? The context of Rev 12 and its dovetailing into the early childhood accounts of Jesus.

Verses 8 and 9 tell us Satan is thrown down to earth and when he is, a voice in heaven says that the Kingdom of God and the authority of His Christ HAS COME because the accuser (Satan) has been cast down. When Jesus was casting out demons, He stated,

Mat 12:26 "If Satan casts out Satan, he [fn] is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?

Mat 12:27 "If I by [fn] Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges.

Mat 12:28 "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Not in the future, but at the entrance of Messiah into the world of men.

You've linked Michael's winning the war in heaven with the Blood of the Lamb. The two are not linked. Michael and the Holy angels win because they are morally stronger than Satan and his angels. The Believers defeat Satan's accusations by the Blood of the Lamb, which at that time was represented by Old Testament sacrifices, and by the word of their testimony, that the LORD is God and there is none other, not any false god. When we say Jesus Christ is LORD, we are saying the same thing.

[oak]

First I don

[Leonard]

First of all, we ought to put the passage in its context.

The Disciples were telling Jesus what they were SEEING: 'The blind see, the deaf hear, we cast out devils in your name....." &c. In this context Jesus said "I was seeing satan fall as lightening from heaven......"

While the Disciples were seeing things just in the earthly realm, Jesus was looking at the same occurances, and seeing BEYOND them.

[oak]

First of all, we ought to put the passage in its context.

The Disciples were telling Jesus what they were SEEING: 'The blind see, the deaf hear, we cast out devils in your name....." &c. In this context Jesus said "I was seeing satan fall as lightening from heaven......"

While the Disciples were seeing things just in the earthly realm, Jesus was looking at the same occurances, and seeing BEYOND them.

If you would have read the context was already broached in post 2. Most people that participated are bright and know that I'm trying to establish a timeline in Revelations based on the Gospel. What you state was stated before and is so obvious that you at best wasted a bit of my time but I don't mind. I'll hear everyone out, and I will commend you for putting in some effort.

Oak

[new_creature]

Revelation 12:7-12

It’s progressive:

In verses 7-10 he speaks chronologically of things that happened in the past, than in verse 11 he speaks of the future.

In Verses 7-11 are meant to illustrate his point in verse 12. Which is a point we are to apply to the present time.

Verse 7-9 speaks of Satan being thrown out of heaven. (past)

Verse 10 speaks of Christ coming and dieing on the cross and resurrecting (past)

Verse 11 speaks of those who endure the tribulation. (future)

Verse 12 refers to us, letting us know that that devil was cast down back in the day, and he is aware that he is defeated and so his attitude is “if I’m going down I’m going to take as many as I can with me”, but we who are saved and operate out of the spirit in faith, should rejoice, because the devil can’t defeat us. But for those who aren’t saved and those who are saved but don’t live right, woe unto them because he is here and his wrath is being poured out. (present)

the idea is, he warred against heaven and lost, he warred against Christ come in the flesh and lost, he will war against those who miss the rapture and experience tribulation yet endure and Satan will lose that one as well, therefore if we serve the lord than he cant defeat us now!!! Praise God!!!

Revelation 12:12 can be crossed referenced with

1 Peter 5:8–9 8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

So 1 Peter 5:8 lets us know that Satan can only devour those who allow him to; “ whom he may devour”

1 Peter 5:9 tells us that he may not devour those who resist him.

James 4:7 tells us that if we submit to God than we can resist the devil and he has to flee us just like he had to flee heaven.

I wrote this in a hurry cause I’m on my way out the door, sorry that its not very organized.

Edited November 20, 2010 by new_creature