PENTECOSTALISM

[nebula]

My pastor researched writings from Chruch history, and he found that such things did indeed exist throughout the centuries.

Thanks. but that's not what I asked about. In any event, it only accounts for the first few centuries.

Sigh - I said there was more.

All right...

A.D 156, a movement in Mysia led by a man named Montanus that was "complete with glossolalia (tongues-speaking), prophecies, visions, and an eschatological expectation.

Irenaeus (whom I mentioned before - born around A.D. 130) mentioned inAgainst Heresies - "we do also hear many brethren in the Church who possess prophetic gifts and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages....It is not possible to name the number of gifts which the Church throughout the whole world has received from God in the name of Jesus Christ."

Novatian (A.D. 210-280) - wrote that the Holy Spirit "places prophets in the church, instructs teachers, directs tongues, gives powers and healings, does wonderful works, offers discrimination of spirits, affords powers of government, suggests counsels, and orders and arranges whatever other gifts there are of charasmata; and thus making the Lord's Church everywhere, and in all, perfected and complete."

Francis of Assisi (A.D. 1182-1226) - within the Franciscan order he established, "prophecy, miracles, healings, and speaking in tongues were evident, as well as a high degree of revival power."

*Side note: It is also noted that the early Franciscans were noted for being overcome by "infections gales of laughter that would swoop over."

Dominic, founder of the Dominican Order (A.d. 1170-1221) - noted as being "a powerfully anointed man to whom signs and wonders were attributed, including speaking in tongues and raising the dead."

From Jedi's source:

Clare of Montefalco (c. 1193-1253) spoke ecstatically in French, although her native tongue was Italian. 14

The Waldenses (c. 1217) These followers of Peter Waldo believed in visions and prophecies.15 Both healing and speaking in tongues were manifested among these heavily persecuted Christians. 16

Bridget of Sweden (1302-1373) Concerning this daughter of Birger, Prince of Sweden, Butler records, "To speak the language of angels was the happy privilege of Saint Bridget," 17

Louis Bertrand (1526-1581), Catholic missionary to South America, spoke in tongues according to Butler: "The gifts of tongues, of prophecy, and of miracles, were favors conferred by heaven on this new apostle, as the authentic history of his life...assures us." 18

The Anabaptist movement in the ealry 1500's was accompanied by people speaking in tongues.

George fox (1624-1691) - "The second earmark of Fox's prophetic ministry was its dynamic charasmatic nature. 'As he prayed, the power of God came down in such a marvelous manner that the very building seemed to rock, ans some of those present declared: "This is like that in the days of the apostles, when at Pentecost the house where they met was shaken!"' Quaker Edward Burroughs told of the power of God present in Quaker meetings: 'We received often the pouring down of the Spirit upon us...and we spoke with new tongues, as the Lord gave us utterance, ans as His Spirit led us....'"

So, the gift of speaking of tongues is recorded throughout the centuries between the early Chruch and present day.

As per "the baptism in the Holy Spirit" - I will admit that the term has not been applied in the writings quoted above and before - however, the manifestations of such is well noted. And if the use of the gifts of the Spirit are not the result of what has been termed "the baptism of the Holy Spirit" - what are they? Are you being "term obsessed" for proof, or can you accept the evidence of such?

[stevehut]

1- God doesn't force the gifts on anyone anymore than He forces the gift of salvation on anyone.

2- Besides, Jesus said "These signs shall follow those who believe."

3- If you don't believe, you have nothing to worry about.

4- When Jedi showed documentation that spanned the centuries and did conclusively show tongues as present throughout the centuries

5- So then you switch your question to being this after Jesus Saves comments.

6- Do you want to know the answer, or do you want us Pentecostals to see your perceived weakness in our theology?

1- Tell that to a Pentecostal. I have never met one who did not believe that every true believer must display the gift of tongues.

2- Yup, and those things indeed came to pass in Acts. (Except drinking poison )

3- Again, tell that to a Pentecostal.

4- Far from conclusive. Most of the people he mentioned were isolated cases that came and went within a short time. And even then, if you read it closely, it was not clear whether most of them spoke in tongues and practiced the Spirit baptism.

5- Nope. A clarification, not a change.

6- No hidden agenda here. Just seeking honest answers.

[stevehut]

1- A.D 156, a movement in Mysia led by a man named Montanus

2- Francis of Assisi (A.D. 1182-1226) -

3- Dominic, founder of the Dominican Order

4- Clare of Montefalco (c. 1193-1253) spoke ecstatically in French,

5- The Waldenses (c. 1217) These followers of Peter Waldo

6- Bridget of Sweden (1302-1373) Concerning this daughter of Birger, Prince of Sweden,

7- Louis Bertrand (1526-1581), Catholic missionary to South America,

8- And if the use of the gifts of the Spirit are not the result of what has been termed "the baptism of the Holy Spirit" - what are they?  Are you being "term obsessed" for proof, or can you accept the evidence of such?

1- I am well acquainted with Montanus. Are you sure that you want to claim him as a spiritual ancestor? Ask anyone, he was among the most raging heretics of his era.

2- Didn't someone just tell me that the Catholics persecuted Charismatics and destroyed their writings?

3- See #2

4- I thought Tongues was supposed to be unknown languages.

5- Like Montanus, almost universally regarded as heretics - and for reasons that have nothing to do with Charismatic gifts.

6- See #2

7- See #2

8- I don't know, again, that's what I am here to understand. And I am not looking for any particular words.

[nebula]

The matter of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and speaking in Tongues. It seems to me that if they were genuine manifestations of the power of God, then I would be able to find a continuous historical record from the apostles to today.

From all of my discussions with my Pentecostal friends, they only know of the history back to the 17th century. Nothing before then. So I must ask...

Does anyone know the history of this movement, before then? Can it be traced back to the apostles, in a continuous historical line? I'd be eager to know.

Steve - you asked if there was historical records. We gave you historical records.

If you want perfection - leave the planet!

(Feeling aggitated wasting a half an hour writing this out for you to brush off with a hand-wave...)

[stevehut]

If you want perfection - leave the planet!

Do you understand my concern, nebula?

[Guest shiloh357]

If you want perfection - leave the planet!

Do you unerstand my concern, nebula?

You ask a question someone answers it, and then you change your question and then pretend that no one addressed your "concern." It gets pretty frustrating when you do that. You got what you asked for, you just don't want to accept it.

[nebula]

If you want perfection - leave the planet!

Do you understand my concern, nebula?

No - I don't.

You didn't state it.

[stevehut]

Do you understand my concern, nebula?

No - I don't. You didn't state it.

OK, I'll try it again.

If the practice of speaking in tongues is valid today -

Then I would expect to find a continual historical record from the apostles to today.

After many months of researching the subject, I can't see the linkage. What I have seen to date, is a series of scattered individuals, but no sustained movement.

Some in here have told me that the Catholic church persecuted the Charismatics and burned their writings.

And in the next post, they cite Catholic saints who spoke in tongues.

So I'm confused.

[Guest Called]

If the practice of speaking in tongues is valid today -

Then I would expect to find a continual historical record from the apostles to today.

Why? Is the moving of God only valid if a bunch of humans wrote about it down through the centuries? That doesn't make sense IMO. Why don't we focus on what the Bible says about tongues and other gifts of the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 says

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

What does that mean? It means that there will still be tongues and prophecies until perfection (Jesus) comes. So, the simple answer to your question is that tongues will be relevant and valid until the Lord comes back to receive His bride. Why do you care about anything else, but what the Word of God says about it?

In Him,

Debbie

[ServingHim]

A look through church history demonstrates that the Pentecostal experience did not end with the apostles.

There is an argument that Pentecost died out with the early church. Following are some quotes taken from church history that will dispel that argument and bless you in the process.

"That this phenomenon is by no means restricted to early Christianity is universally recognized. It was common in the Christian movement as late as Tertullian and Irenaeus. In later years it appeared again, and has been the seemingly inevitable consequence of all extended seasons of 'revivals.'" 1

"It has been (and is) a feature of religious, especially revivalist, activities at many periods of church history." 2

"Tongues recur in Christian revivals in every age, e.g., among...the early Quakers, the converts of Wesley and Whitefield, the persecuted Protestants of the Cevennes, the Irvingites, and the revivalists of Wales and America." 3

Justin Martyr (died 165) "For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to the present time." 4

Irenaeus (died 202) "In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God." 5

Tertullian (died 220), replying to Marcion, a Gnostic: "Let Marcion then exhibit, as gifts of his god, some prophets, such as have not spoken by human sense, but with the Spirit of God, such as have both predicted things to come, and have made manifest the secrets of the heart; let him produce a psalm, a vision, a prayer - only let it be by the Spirit, in an ecstasy; that is, in a rapture, whenever an interpretation of tongues has occurred to him...Now all these signs are forthcoming from my side without any difficulty, and they agree, too, with the rules, and the dispensations, and the instructions of the Creator..." 6

do you trust all these early church fathers in what they taught? If so, do you also look to them for anything else of what they taught, since THEY were taught by the Apostles themselves AND their successors?