distinguishing false from real

[~candice~]

Man - what about the Apostle Paul in Romans 7 & 8 (context) specifically Ro 7:15 etc? Paul continued to sin after salvation and I don't read anywhere that the spirit leaves him after each sin. If the HS is a seal, that is removed at each sin, then it's not really a seal.

[Guest man]

Man - what about the Apostle Paul in Romans 7 & 8 (context) specifically Ro 7:15 etc? Paul continued to sin after salvation and I don't read anywhere that the spirit leaves him after each sin. If the HS is a seal, that is removed at each sin, then it's not really a seal.

I never stated that the Holy Spirit leaves everytime a sin is committed.

Here is the post I was addressing.

I know people who have His Spirit, but reject His leading because they rather follow their favorite teacher/preacher, no matter how many times it is pointed out that this teacher teaches certain scripture wrong by those who are listening to the Spirit. How do you approach this type of person? How does one warn them when they do not listen? Just because one has the Holy Spirit does not mean that they follow Him.

If someone who is following the teachings of a false teacher and is considered to be sealed with the Holy Spirit, why do we spend so much time warning them about those false teachings? That doesn't make sense. What does it matter what he's doing or who he's following, he's sealed with the Holy Spirit.

We can pretty much disregard all the warnings about false prophets and teachers because if we're sealed with the Holy Spirit, we're good to go.

I don't understand how someone can say an individual is filled with the Holy Spirit if they are continuing a life of sin. That doesn't make sense to me. If someone rejects the truth, who can honestly say they are sealed with the Holy Spirit?

Jesus said, "If the blind follow the blind, they will both fall into the ditch".

Peter said there will be false prophets who will bring in destructive heresies. If someone is sealed with the Holy Spirit and chooses to accept those heresies, are they truly destructive?

In Paul's letter to Timothy, he said there will those who will have a form of godliness and that we are to stay away from them. Why the warning if we are sealed with the Holy Spirit? They can't hurt us.

I don't deny the seal of the Holy Spirit. The Word states it and I believe it. Another thing I believe is that seal can be broken. If that seal can't be broken, it was never there to begin with.

A Kingdom divided cannot stand.

[Babbler]

You will know them by their lusts.

[ayin jade]

Man - what about the Apostle Paul in Romans 7 & 8 (context) specifically Ro 7:15 etc? Paul continued to sin after salvation and I don't read anywhere that the spirit leaves him after each sin. If the HS is a seal, that is removed at each sin, then it's not really a seal.

I never stated that the Holy Spirit leaves everytime a sin is committed.

Here is the post I was addressing.

I know people who have His Spirit, but reject His leading because they rather follow their favorite teacher/preacher, no matter how many times it is pointed out that this teacher teaches certain scripture wrong by those who are listening to the Spirit. How do you approach this type of person? How does one warn them when they do not listen? Just because one has the Holy Spirit does not mean that they follow Him.

If someone who is following the teachings of a false teacher and is considered to be sealed with the Holy Spirit, why do we spend so much time warning them about those false teachings? That doesn't make sense. What does it matter what he's doing or who he's following, he's sealed with the Holy Spirit.

We can pretty much disregard all the warnings about false prophets and teachers because if we're sealed with the Holy Spirit, we're good to go.

I don't understand how someone can say an individual is filled with the Holy Spirit if they are continuing a life of sin. That doesn't make sense to me. If someone rejects the truth, who can honestly say they are sealed with the Holy Spirit?

Jesus said, "If the blind follow the blind, they will both fall into the ditch".

Peter said there will be false prophets who will bring in destructive heresies. If someone is sealed with the Holy Spirit and chooses to accept those heresies, are they truly destructive?

In Paul's letter to Timothy, he said there will those who will have a form of godliness and that we are to stay away from them. Why the warning if we are sealed with the Holy Spirit? They can't hurt us.

I don't deny the seal of the Holy Spirit. The Word states it and I believe it. Another thing I believe is that seal can be broken. If that seal can't be broken, it was never there to begin with.

A Kingdom divided cannot stand.

The bible is clear that the seal is not broken, that one is sealed until the day of redemption. Seals back in biblical times had a much higher meaning than how we view them today. Seals could not be broken back then, not without dire consequences and often not until certain conditions were met. God cannot break His own seal in this case. To do so would make Him a liar.

[Guest man]

The bible is clear that the seal is not broken, that one is sealed until the day of redemption. Seals back in biblical times had a much higher meaning than how we view them today. Seals could not be broken back then, not without dire consequences and often not until certain conditions were met. God cannot break His own seal in this case. To do so would make Him a liar.

Do you believe someone who does this can be sealed with the Holy Spirit?

I know people who have His Spirit, but reject His leading because they rather follow their favorite teacher/preacher, no matter how many times it is pointed out that this teacher teaches certain scripture wrong by those who are listening to the Spirit.

Just because one has the Holy Spirit does not mean that they follow Him.

[Joshua-777]

Ok, but in my example of the gold dust, there are Christians who say it is from God, and Christians who say it is not from God. Which one is right? How do you know? How do you take into account this verse?

2 Timothy 4

3 For a time will be when they will not endure sound doctrine, but they will heap up teachers to themselves according to their own lusts, tickling the ear.

4 And they will turn away their ears from the truth and will be turned to myths.

Well I do not believe the gold dust appears at all firstly.But even if it does I do not see any reason in scripture for it to be from God.

Although I am not convinced every false miracle to come will be against,or not found in,scripture.

Joh 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

I guess what Im trying to ask, what Im trying to have people consider and answer, is when 2 Christians believe in something totally opposite, like the gold dust thing is real versus it is not real, then how do we know which is truth? How can we determine that? Both believe God is telling them its real and not real, so who is hearing correctly and how can we know?

Through intimacy with the Lord, and being open to the Spirit's leading, base everything on intimacy with our Messiah. I do not know if the gold dust thing is true or not, I have not seen it, and don't know much about it, I have heard reports of this from a few different churches, and I've heard testimonies where something like this occurred, one was where a woman needed a new heart and children laid their hands on her and prayed that she would receive one, After the children where done praying there was gold dust hand prints on the lady and she was given a new heart. I believe it can happen. We serve a real God who does interact with us, we serve a God who does miracles, and gold dust in no way contradicts scripture, and I believe it could be showing us how close we are to the kingdom of heaven. the questions we should be wondering is how are the lives of the believers, is there faith sound? Where is their heart at? How much do they love?

1 John 2:4-5

4 Anyone who says, "I know him," but isn't obeying his commands is a liar - the truth is not in him. 5 But if someone keeps doing what he says, then truly love for God has been brought to its goal in him. This is how we are sure that we are united with him. 6 A person who claims to be continuing in union with him ought to conduct his life the way he did.

1 John 3: 5-7

5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and that there is no sin in him. 6 So no one who remains united with him continues sinning; everyone who does continue sinning has neither seen him nor known him. 7 Children, don't let anyone deceive you - it is the person that keeps on doing what is right who is righteous, just as God is righteous. 8 The person who keeps on sinning is from the Adversary, because from the very beginning the Adversary has kept on sinning. It was for this very reason that the Son of God appeared, to destroy these doings of the Adversary. 9 No one who has God as his Father keeps on sinning, because the seed planted by God remains in him. That is, he cannot continue sinning, because he has God as his Father

10 Here is how one can distinguish clearly between God's children and those of the Adversary: everyone who does not continue doing what is right is not from God. Likewise, anyone who fails to keep loving his brother is not from God.

Matthew 6:9-15

9 You, therefore, pray like this: `Our Father in heaven! May your Name be kept holy. 10 May your Kingdom come, your will be done on earth as in heaven. 11 Give us the food we need today. 12 Forgive us what we have done wrong, as we too have forgiven those who have wronged us. 13 And do not lead us into hard testing, but keep us safe from the Evil One. For kingship, power and glory are yours forever. Amen.' 14 For if you forgive others their offenses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; 15 but if you do not forgive others their offenses, your heavenly Father will not forgive yours.

Now one thing I find interesting is reading through Acts, there where many odd miracles that the Lord did through Paul, for example using articles of his clothing to heal.

acts 19:11-12 God did extraordinary miracles through Sha'ul. 12 For instance, handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were brought to sick people; they would recover from their ailments; and the evil spirits would leave them.

Now reading some of the crazy miracles Jesus did, and then the miracles Jesus did through the Apostles in acts, I believe that God could cause gold dust. There where many upon many miracles never written about also.

John 21:25 But there are also many other things Yeshua did; and if they were all to be recorded, I don't think the whole world could contain the books that would have to be written!

[JCISGD]

We can know right from wrong by the fruit, but i would add that the fruit being examined is not wether they seem nice, even con artist and pedophiles can put on a false front and some people are great actors even believing their own lies.

IMO the fruit we judge by is the same as in agriculture etc, it is what the seed or the tree produces. Does it produce Godly converts and Godly behaviour.

Jesus did not dispute wether the miracles done in His name were real, He only said that these ones He "did not know" were "workers of iniquity" Luke 13:27

In John Wesley`s church there were two women who broke out in laughter during solem meetings, which they claimed was of the Holy Spirit. But those in authority noticed that the fruit was disruption and distracting from the work of the Lord in preaching and winning souls, so they handed them over to Satan. The women soon realised they had no control of their laughter and cried out in repentance, whereby the elders prayed and they were delivered.

Does God perform seemingly frivolous miracles, i dont claim to know. But if He does im sure it should be used to bring Him glory and not bring the name of His precious Son into disrepute.

[Joshua-777]

I believe miracles happen today but why would God need to use gold dust as evidence.Isn't the healing enough? I don't recall Jesus or the disciples leaving signs besides the miracle itself. I believe our faith in the action does not need any other sign.

I hear what you are saying but is evidence left behind as sign of a miracle besides the result?

With the gold dust, Gems, manna, ect. Things left behind, or manifest into existence, There is some biblical evidence that God manifested things into existence.

Jesus made a gold coin appear in the mouth of a fish.

Matthew 17:24-27

24 When they came to K'far-Nachum, the collectors of the half-shekel came to Kefa and said, "Doesn't your rabbi pay the Temple tax?" 25 "Of course he does," said Kefa. When he arrived home, Yeshua spoke first. "Shim`on, what's your opinion? The kings of the earth -- from whom do they collect duties and taxes? From their sons or from others?" 26 "From others," he answered. "Then," said Yeshua, "The sons are exempt. 27 But to avoid offending them -- go to the lake, throw out a line, and take the first fish you catch. Open its mouth, and you will find a shekel. Take it and give it to them for me and for you."

Food multiplying of course, manna coming down from heaven when the Israelites where in the wilderness. I haven't studied these specific types of miracles, but I think I'm going to look into it more.

One testimony I heard from Heidi Baker, was they brought a bag of toys to children in an orphanage on Christmas, the bag was full of stuffed dogs, and they didn't have enough for all the children. The Lord lead Heidi to ask the little girls what they wanted, the psychiatrist interrupted and said, there's stuffed dogs in the bag, but she said no, and asked the children what they wanted. They replied they wanted beads, She then reached in the bag and boxes of beads appeared.

I'm not aloud to post youtube links, but You can find this testimony with a few others on there.

The title is: Heidi Baker: Intimacy for Miracles - CBN.com

Now with the gold dust I cannot say it did or didn't happen, looking into some cases where this is claimed to have occurred I haven't found another doctrine, or a different gospel, They are not deceiving anyone to believe something contrary to the bible, they are not preaching a different Jesus, no one can say this is the "false christ" that performs miracles. I haven't found anything yet I don't agree with, I found people head over heals in love with the Lord with the testimony that gold dust appeared while they where in worship, and the only difference is the testimony of what happened.

Now the deeper in love I get with our Father, the more I realize that He is personal, He is our Father, and He loves about His children, He reaches out to each one in different ways. He's not distant, He loves us and He is intimate with us. He cares about each one of us personally. Whether or not we believe that the gold dust thing, or things of the like, we cannot condemn it, because it is in no way contrary to the gospel, and we do not know. We see that the Lord caused many diverse miracles, and things to happen all through out the bible, I don't believe that He stopped with the bible, and I believe that He can and does create miracles all the time. Not every miracle that Jesus did was written.

John 21:25 But there are also many other things Yeshua did; and if they were all to be recorded, I don't think the whole world could contain the books that would have to be written!

[Joshua-777]

The bible is clear that the seal is not broken, that one is sealed until the day of redemption. Seals back in biblical times had a much higher meaning than how we view them today. Seals could not be broken back then, not without dire consequences and often not until certain conditions were met. God cannot break His own seal in this case. To do so would make Him a liar.

Do you believe someone who does this can be sealed with the Holy Spirit?

I know people who have His Spirit, but reject His leading because they rather follow their favorite teacher/preacher, no matter how many times it is pointed out that this teacher teaches certain scripture wrong by those who are listening to the Spirit.

Just because one has the Holy Spirit does not mean that they follow Him.

John 15:1 "I am the real vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 Every branch which is part of me but fails to bear fruit, he cuts off; and every branch that does bear fruit, he prunes, so that it may bear more fruit. 3 Right now, because of the word which I have spoken to you, you are pruned. 4 Stay united with me, as I will with you -- for just as the branch can't put forth fruit by itself apart from the vine, so you can't bear fruit apart from me. 5 "I am the vine and you are the branches. Those who stay united with me, and I with them, are the ones who bear much fruit; because apart from me you can't do a thing. 6 Unless a person remains united with me, he is thrown away like a branch and dries up. Such branches are gathered and thrown into the fire, where they are burned up.

Mark 4:14 The sower sows the message. 15 Those alongside the path where the message is sown are people who no sooner hear it than the Adversary comes and takes away the message sown in them. 16 Likewise, those receiving seed on rocky patches are people who hear the message and joyfully accept it at once; but they have no root in themselves. So they hold out for a while, but as 17 soon as some trouble or persecution arises on account of the message, they immediately fall away. 18 Others are those sown among thorns -- they hear the message; 19 but the worries of the world, the deceitful glamor of wealth and all the other kinds of desires push in and choke the message; so that it produces nothing. 20 But those sown on rich soil hear the message, accept it and bear fruit -- thirty, sixty or a hundredfold." 21 He said to them, "A lamp isn't brought in to be put under a bowl or under the bed, is it? Wouldn't you put it on a lampstand?

I believe that if we FOLLOW Jesus, we are sealed. If we Fail to abide in him, and do not bear fruit, He cuts us off.

IF we couldn't be mislead, then why is it so important to be lead? If we cannot be deceived, why is there so many warnings about being deceived? Satan can easily deceive us, but He cannot deceive the Holy Spirit, what are we letting control us?

When we surrender to the Holy Spirit, He takes the lead, If we surrender to our flesh, our flesh takes the lead.

I believe you can have the Holy Spirit, and not live surrender to Him. This is the battle between your flesh and Spirit. God entrusts us with His precious Holy Spirit, to take the lead, how can He take the lead if we do not submit control?

[Guest man]

With the gold dust, Gems, manna, ect. Things left behind, or manifest into existence, There is some biblical evidence that God manifested things into existence.

Jesus made a gold coin appear in the mouth of a fish.

Food multiplying of course, manna coming down from heaven when the Israelites where in the wilderness. I haven't studied these specific types of miracles, but I think I'm going to look into it more.

Is there anything in the Word that would indicate that any of the miracles performed served no purpose?

What purpose does the gold dust serve?

Just asking.