Perhaps he has a point?

[OneLight]

When I accepted Christ, it was between Him and me. The small church I went to off and on was not one that would be considered a good testimony for Christ, but His Spirit worked personally within me, not the body of believers I barely knew. Nobody can point to anyone else as a reason why they rejected Him who speaks to the heart of each person.

[Dak]

Someone should have introduced him to Jesus and not their Religion.

And who's fault is that????

His????

That's what I'm talking about!!!!

He was introduced to Jesus. His father named him because of Christian missionaries that were there. He was not ignorant of Christian beliefs.

Being acquainted with Jesus is different from knowing him. One can be thoroughly introduced to our God but still reject him.

It is not the responsibility of the Church alone; one must still come to the decision to seek after God -- regardless of the state of the Church. For it is not the Church who will save him, but God.

Admittedly, and generally speaking, the Church is not without blame.... I myself searched for God on my own, because those who had evangelized me had been greatly wanting....

But why torture ourselves about these problems in the Church? Why carry them in our frail shoulders? Unless we are specifically commanded by God to be concerned about them and do something about them, such giant problems belong to our Lord, to be carried by him.

Why not focus on improving ourselves as servants of God instead, so that we will not make the same mistakes? So that those who meet us will really know who Christ is through our lives? So that every Chief Joseph that we encounter will be compelled to accept Christ as his Savior?

One thing I believe in -- the more prepared and the more powerful I am as God's servant, the more he can use me to impact, not just this world, but also the Church.

[nebula]

As a teacher, if I discover that something I say or do becomes a stumbling block against my students learning, I take this to heart and try to figure out how to cease becoming a stumbling block. While I acknowledge that the student is responsible for his/her own learning, my love for my students motivates me to humble myself to acknowledge my failures, and if it is in my power to change the offending words/behavior I will.

Is this so difficult?

Where is Paul's cry "to become all things to all men that I may win some?"

Or are we more interested in condemning the sinner for his lack of faith when we hear such things?

[Dak]

As a teacher, if I discover that something I say or do becomes a stumbling block against my students learning, I take this to heart and try to figure out how to cease becoming a stumbling block. While I acknowledge that the student is responsible for his/her own learning, my love for my students motivates me to humble myself to acknowledge my failures, and if it is in my power to change the offending words/behavior I will.

Is this so difficult?

Where is Paul's cry "to become all things to all men that I may win some?"

Or are we more interested in condemning the sinner for his lack of faith when we hear such things?

Of course I agree with you. But what you are saying is personal, something that you can control. What we are talking about here are the failings of the Church. And to try to change things, on our own and without God's approval, will surely break us. And it will be a waste of our lives.

What can you do? What can I do? All I can say is surrender more to God, so that both of us can be of more use to him....

Remember that we are only servants. We follow, we obey, and we are provided for. But we do not plan. Planning is our Lord's responsibility. Also, we do not worry about matters that are our Master's concerns alone.

[Dak]

To those who really care to make a difference... I have a prayer in my blog that I like to share with you:

What can I do, but to continue surrendering?

[Isaiah 6:8]

As a relative of Chief Joseph I figured I might as well weigh in.

First to start...

(New King James Version)

³⁴ A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. ³⁵By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

If all he saw was fighting, which was not uncommon on the frontier how would he even know they knew the Lord?

Lets look at what happened to his father Old Joseph

In 1836 the Reverend Henry Spalding founded a Protestant Mission on Lapwai Creek in Nez Perce country. An early convert was the chief of one of the prominent bands, Old Joseph. In 1840, Old Joseph's first son was born. Given the tribal name of 'Thunder Rolling in the Mountains,' the child was baptized by Spalding and given the name Joseph. The child would spend most of his time around the Lapwai mission.

In the late 1840's Old Joseph moved his people southward to their ancestral grounds around the Wallowa valley. Despite this move the Army kept pushing for more land. In 1863, a treaty was called to reduce the tribal holdings from 10,000 to 1000 square miles. The upper Nez Perce signed while the lower tribes, under Old Joseph, walked out in disgust.

Old Joseph ripped up his Bible , completely disillusioned by the white man. As the old man's health deteriorated, Young Joseph began to take over more of his father's duties. He would meet the white men who were pushing for his people's lands, always polite but firmly resistant. In 1871, Old Joseph died and his son became Chief.

-http://www.essortmen...ephnez_rfjp.htm-

Also just because you learn Bible story's as a child does not mean you "Know" Christ or even know the truth about what Christianity teaches.

The sad truth is Most religion, Christianity in all its forms were brought over as a "White mans" religion,. Part of this was forsaking some of your heritage to become "Christian", and often times being a Christian had nothing to do with knowing Christ.

A lot of infighting and division and betrayal from all the "Christians" This is not an excuse for him but a point of historical reference.

It is sad he is probably not in heaven right now, but the point I think Neb was making was this. We need to remember that verse that I posted before, to remember our example that we need to be!

I am going to finish with this...

1 Corinthians 13 (New King James Version)

The Greatest Gift

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

[ayin jade]

Some of ones heritage SHOULD be given up when one gets saved.

For instance, one should stop attending squaw dances on the navajo reservation. These are pagan healing ceremonies that call on the native false gods.

Among American culture, abortion is part of our culture. A Christian definitely should give that up, as well as the cavalier attitude towards drugs and fornication.

Just because something is culturally unique doesnt mean it fits into a Christian lifestyle. Do natives who become Christians have to worship like white americans? No, but neither should they keep everything in their culture either.

Another example, black liberation theology. In the 60s, black theologians wanted to make Christianity more black centered. The end result is a theology that denies the sacrifice of Jesus and turns it into their false gospel of salvation through identification of the victim.

One needs to confront false theology, and if one wants to keep culturally relevant things, it should only be if it doesnt conflict with our Lord.

[Isaiah 6:8]

I am not talking about sinful aspects of ones culture. Things like not being allowed to speak your language. Wear your everyday tribal clothes, not eating your normal food. These are some of the things that were taken away. Being forced to become European is not becoming Christ like would you not agree?

I suggest the books "Bruchko" by Bruce Olson, or "Peace Child" by Don Richardson. These books shows how Christ is in every culture and how to reach the people for him with out crushing who God made them to be. Sinful things must fall but not the God given aspects of their culture. This is akin to trying to force your child to be a Doctor, when they want to be and God made them to be a scientist etc. There are many, many First Nations people around the world that are now completely closed to the gospel because of the attitude of "In order to be saved you must be as close to a European as possible" I have never seen once in the Bible where Jesus said that you must forsake your heritage to become a Christian, matter of fact the opposite was true. You remember the whole argument of circumcision, if the new believers had to become circumcised or not. We have lost some of the God given cultural things that we could learn from with this.

[ayin jade]

Ok, that I understand. In my in laws church, they wear native dress, or not, as they please. They have navajo bibles, in the written form (its been standardized in written form over the years) etc. They have camp meetings with native speakers and native foods as part of their witnessing. The push to give up their language though wasnt due to missionaries but rather the govt conquest of natives.

[south]

I thought " the church " was the whole body of Christ .....

In my own body one part ( my mind ) tells me to do things that other parts ( such as my knees and back ) refus to believe I should do .

In every family there will be differences of opinions on almost everything ...some differences lead to all out "war ".

So should we also abolish bodies and families ????

Why is everyone missing the point about "arguing about God"?

That is the very reason people argue, because they view things differently. You see one thing, the others see something different. I guess this is the same when people talk about God and the Bible.

Blessings...South