Where I stand on Israel...and why

[Bold Believer]

Since I'm not a pre-millennialist (the pre-dominant end time teaching in the US, but not necessarily the Christian world) but a Last Day resurrectionist, there may be some question as to where I stand on Israel (the Middle Eastern nation).

Let me say that I am most definitely PRO-Israel. Israel is a good (though not perfect) ally of the USA and deserves our support politically and militarily. Paul states that all Israel will be saved, but within that statement there is a Scriptural caveat that must be considered. It was a mixed multitude that came out of Israel, and not all who are IN Israel are OF Israel.

God says in Amos 9:9 "For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as [corn] is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth."

Even the prophet Daniel acknowledges in Daniel 9:11 "Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that [is] written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him."

What oath is Daniel referring to? Deuteronomy's warning. Deuteronomy 28:20-68. This has been fulfilled. God has punished Israel double for her sins. Notice 'the curse IS poured out upon us.' Not will be, but IS. It was being poured out in Daniel's day and culminated in AD 70.

The promises given to Israel are always and ALWAYS WILL BE FULFILLED in Messiah.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ.

Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

In essence, you are NOT an heir unless you are part of the One who IS THE SEED. Ethnic Israel is NOT entitled as a nation, because the promise is not to a NATION but to Abraham and his Seed (Jesus).

So when Paul wants Israel to be saved and prays for their salvation just whom is he referring to? Those ethnic Jews who have not yet received Yeshua as Messiah. It's these person who compose the 'all Israel' who will be saved.

So then, why support Israel the Middle Eastern nation? If the literal nation of Israel has no bearing on the Promise, why should we bother to send them millions in aid and give them political support? The simplest answer is that Israel is the most righteous nation in the region. Islam certainly has no intrinsic righteousness. Islam is aggressive to its neighbors, oppresses its own people and promulgates a theological lie contrary to Scripture around the world. While modern Judaism is not Biblical Judaism, it's STILL more righteous than wicked Islam. A nation which looks out for the welfare of its citizens and is gracious to its neighbors should always be supported.

[wyguy]

We can agree to disagree on eschatology. It's not a salvation issue.

So then, why support Israel the Middle Eastern nation? If the literal nation of Israel has no bearing on the Promise, why should we bother to send them millions in aid and give them political support?

It's simple for me: "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." (Genesis 12:3 NIV)

[OneLight]

Since I'm not a pre-millennialist (the pre-dominant end time teaching in the US, but not necessarily the Christian world) but a Last Day resurrectionist, there may be some question as to where I stand on Israel (the Middle Eastern nation).

Let me say that I am most definitely PRO-Israel. Israel is a good (though not perfect) ally of the USA and deserves our support politically and militarily. Paul states that all Israel will be saved, but within that statement there is a Scriptural caveat that must be considered. It was a mixed multitude that came out of Israel, and not all who are IN Israel are OF Israel.

God says in Amos 9:9 "For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as [corn] is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth."

Even the prophet Daniel acknowledges in Daniel 9:11 "Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that [is] written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him."

What oath is Daniel referring to? Deuteronomy's warning. Deuteronomy 28:20-68. This has been fulfilled. God has punished Israel double for her sins. Notice 'the curse IS poured out upon us.' Not will be, but IS. It was being poured out in Daniel's day and culminated in AD 70.

The promises given to Israel are always and ALWAYS WILL BE FULFILLED in Messiah.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ.

Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

In essence, you are NOT an heir unless you are part of the One who IS THE SEED. Ethnic Israel is NOT entitled as a nation, because the promise is not to a NATION but to Abraham and his Seed (Jesus).

So when Paul wants Israel to be saved and prays for their salvation just whom is he referring to? Those ethnic Jews who have not yet received Yeshua as Messiah. It's these person who compose the 'all Israel' who will be saved.

So then, why support Israel the Middle Eastern nation? If the literal nation of Israel has no bearing on the Promise, why should we bother to send them millions in aid and give them political support? The simplest answer is that Israel is the most righteous nation in the region. Islam certainly has no intrinsic righteousness. Islam is aggressive to its neighbors, oppresses its own people and promulgates a theological lie contrary to Scripture around the world. While modern Judaism is not Biblical Judaism, it's STILL more righteous than wicked Islam. A nation which looks out for the welfare of its citizens and is gracious to its neighbors should always be supported.

Simplify for this old man, will you? Is what you are saying also known as replacement theology? The "body" or church replacing Israel?

[Bold Believer]

The Church doesn't replace Israel. What I'm saying is that ethnic Jews are NOT Israel scripturally in the sense that they are entitled to the promises. No unsaved person is entitled to the promises, because they are not in Christ the Heir. It wouldn't matter if the person were ethnically Jewish or ethnically Gentile. If you aren't IN CHRIST, you are not entitled.

The Church as I understand it is what the Old Testament refers to as the "Great Assembly" or "Great Congregation." It is composed of both ethnic Jewish and ethnic Gentile believers who trust Jesus for their salvation. The Jewish people WITHIN the Great Assembly ARE Israel. Those whom God intends to save who are ethnically Jewish are the 'all' Israel whom Paul desires to be saved and whom he states will be saved.

[Joshua-777]

Since I'm not a pre-millennialist (the pre-dominant end time teaching in the US, but not necessarily the Christian world) but a Last Day resurrectionist, there may be some question as to where I stand on Israel (the Middle Eastern nation).

Let me say that I am most definitely PRO-Israel. Israel is a good (though not perfect) ally of the USA and deserves our support politically and militarily. Paul states that all Israel will be saved, but within that statement there is a Scriptural caveat that must be considered. It was a mixed multitude that came out of Israel, and not all who are IN Israel are OF Israel.

God says in Amos 9:9 "For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as [corn] is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth."

Even the prophet Daniel acknowledges in Daniel 9:11 "Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that [is] written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him."

What oath is Daniel referring to? Deuteronomy's warning. Deuteronomy 28:20-68. This has been fulfilled. God has punished Israel double for her sins. Notice 'the curse IS poured out upon us.' Not will be, but IS. It was being poured out in Daniel's day and culminated in AD 70.

The promises given to Israel are always and ALWAYS WILL BE FULFILLED in Messiah.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ.

Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

In essence, you are NOT an heir unless you are part of the One who IS THE SEED. Ethnic Israel is NOT entitled as a nation, because the promise is not to a NATION but to Abraham and his Seed (Jesus).

So when Paul wants Israel to be saved and prays for their salvation just whom is he referring to? Those ethnic Jews who have not yet received Yeshua as Messiah. It's these person who compose the 'all Israel' who will be saved.

So then, why support Israel the Middle Eastern nation? If the literal nation of Israel has no bearing on the Promise, why should we bother to send them millions in aid and give them political support? The simplest answer is that Israel is the most righteous nation in the region. Islam certainly has no intrinsic righteousness. Islam is aggressive to its neighbors, oppresses its own people and promulgates a theological lie contrary to Scripture around the world. While modern Judaism is not Biblical Judaism, it's STILL more righteous than wicked Islam. A nation which looks out for the welfare of its citizens and is gracious to its neighbors should always be supported.

There are many reasons why I think we should support Israel, and that Israel is still God's Holy City, and the Jews are still Gods chosen people.

I believe Israel is a center role for the evens of revelation, and still Gods Holy City, and I believe the Jews are still Gods chosen people.

In the end times It is going to be the place where Jesus is going to come back. The nations are going to rise against Jerusalem and Jesus will fight on their behalf, which is the picture we have here in Zechariah 14. We also see the nations rise against Israel in Jer 30, and Joel 3.

Zechariah 14:2 "For I will gather all the nations against Yerushalayim for war. The city will be taken, the houses will be rifled, the women will be raped, and half the city will go into exile; but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city." 3 Then ADONAI will go out and fight against those nations, fighting as on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which lies to the east of Yerushalayim; and the Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, to make a huge valley. Half of the mountain will move toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

When Jesus appears to defend Israel, I believe that is when ALL Israel will be saved after the fullness of the gentiles come in.

Now if we look At romans 11, there is so much to this verses, concerning future prophecies for Israel, It says a stoniness has come upon Israel until the gentiles enter their fulness. This stoniness is Israel's rejection of Jesus. The out of Tziyon will come a redeemer, is a prophecy given in Isaiah referring to the state of Israel, This is something yet to happen because Paul quotes it as a future event. It also makes clear Gods gifts and His calling are Irrevocable.

Romans 11:25-31

25 For, brothers, I want you to understand this truth which God formerly concealed but has now revealed, so that you won't imagine you know more than you actually do. It is that stoniness, to a degree, has come upon Isra'el, until the Gentile world enters in its fullness; 26 and that it is in this way that all Isra'el will be saved. As the Tanakh says, "Out of Tziyon will come the Redeemer; he will turn away ungodliness from Ya'akov 27 and this will be my covenant with them, . . . when I take away their sins." 28 With respect to the Good News they are hated for your sake. But with respect to being chosen they are loved for the Patriarchs' sake, 29 for God's free gifts and his calling are irrevocable. 30 Just as you yourselves were disobedient to God before but have received mercy now because of Isra'el's disobedience; 31 so also Isra'el has been disobedient now, so that by your showing them the same mercy that God has shown you, they too may now receive God's mercy. 32 For God has shut up all mankind together in disobedience, in order that he might show mercy to all.

vs 11-12 Show they have stumbled, but they have not permanently fallen away.

Romans 11:11-12

11 "In that case, I say, isn't it that they have stumbled with the result that they have permanently fallen away?" Heaven forbid! Quite the contrary, it is by means of their stumbling that the deliverance has come to the Gentiles, in order to provoke them to jealousy. a 12 Moreover, if their stumbling is bringing riches to the world - that is, if Isra'el's being placed temporarily in a condition less favored than that of the Gentiles is bringing riches to the latter - how much greater riches will Isra'el in its fullness bring them!

[Guest]

Verily, verily, I say unto you,

He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,

and shall not come into condemnation;

but is passed from death unto life. John 5:24

>>>>>()<<<<<

The Church doesn't replace Israel. What I'm saying is that ethnic Jews are NOT Israel scripturally in the sense that they are entitled to the promises. No unsaved person is entitled to the promises, because they are not in Christ the Heir. It wouldn't matter if the person were ethnically Jewish or ethnically Gentile. If you aren't IN CHRIST, you are not entitled.

The Church as I understand it is what the Old Testament refers to as the "Great Assembly" or "Great Congregation." It is composed of both ethnic Jewish and ethnic Gentile believers who trust Jesus for their salvation. The Jewish people WITHIN the Great Assembly ARE Israel. Those whom God intends to save who are ethnically Jewish are the 'all' Israel whom Paul desires to be saved and whom he states will be saved.

Salvation

But without faith it is impossible to please him:

for he that cometh to God must believe that he is,

and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6

Salvation

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

>>>>>()<<<<<

Promises

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications:

and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son,

and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. Zechariah 12:10-14

Promises

And ye shall be my people,

and I will be your God. Jeremiah 30:22

>>>>>()<<<<<

The Wild Branch

And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them,

and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches.

But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root,

but the root thee. Romans 11:17-18

The Jewish Branch

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch,

and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. Jeremiah 23:5

The Beloved Brothers Twelve

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,

There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Romans 11:26-27

>>>>>()<<<<<

It Is No Secret

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered:

for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said,

and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Joel 2:32

Jesus Saves

Neither is there salvation in any other:

for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12

We Don't

And they were astonished out of measure,

saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?

And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible,

but not with God: for with God all things are possible. Mark 10:26-27

>>>>>()<<<<<

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world,

what shall the receiving of them be,

but life from the dead? Romans 11:15

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Matthitjah]

Replacement Theology.

Here's what God has to say about the issue;

Isa

[Joshua-777]

Replacement Theology.

Here's what God has to say about the issue;

Isa

[nebula]

To claim that the Lord is done with the Jews does not fit with what is written in Romans 11 -

For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be,but life from the dead? (Romans 11:15)

That to me says they will be returning to the faith and turning to Yeshua.

[Bold Believer]

I never said God was through with the Jews. What I said was:

1. The Church is the Great Congregation from the Old Testament

2. Israel is all of the ethnic Jews who are now or will be saved

3. The current nation of Israel is not entitled to the promise because they are unbelievers

4. The promise was not made to the Nation of Israel, but to Abraham and his Seed which is Christ

5. Any individual who is in Christ is entitled to the Promise.

I looked at the language used in Mt 21:43, specifically the words given and nation.

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Didomi (given) conveys the idea of presenting someone something to be entrusted with or to administer.

Ethnos refers to a people group, usually the Gentiles in Scripture.

The question is: Whom is Jesus speaking to? The context starts at 21:23 and Jesus is speaking to: The chief priests and elders. The teachers and administrators of all the functions and rituals of the Jewish religion. So is Jesus saying he intends to replace Israel with the Church or that he intends to replace the leadership of Israel with the Church?

How does a Jewish person get saved? He has to hear the Good News from someone who has it and that someone is usually a non-Jew (though not always). The administration of the Kingdom has been given to those who bring forth the fruit...Gentile Believers (or those who are perceived by the Jews as non-Jewish Believers.)