The Pre-trib Fallacy

[John3;16]

Romans 10:14-15 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Romans 11:30-32 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The first verses reveal that the JEWS too will be saved if they turn their hearts to God upon hearing the Gospel - SO WHO IS IT GOD HAS PLANS FOR PREACHING TO THEM?

Isaiah|2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and

let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the

God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will

walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and

the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Isaiah|2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall

rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into

plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall

not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war

any Jeremiah|23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I

will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall

reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in

the earth.

The remnant left from the nations that came up against Jerusalem which the Lord the Lord destroyed with his presence in the day of the Lord (Zach 14:12), and the remnant left of Israel and Judah, will enter into the millennium, but not as the saints, they will suffer death, the Lord rules over them with a rod of iron, they will be reproducing, they will be required to go up to the temple from year to year (Zach 14:16 and 14:17) , they will have the spirit of God poured out upon them Romans 11:25-27), they will be different from what we know as our flesh today, because if they sin they will die, one thing to keep in mind is that Satan will be bound for the thousand years and will not be able to temp any of them. But the saints will be returning with the Lord (Zach 15:5) for the saints to return with him they must have first been taken up(1 Thes 3:13), and as many have pointed out, we meet him in the air (1 Thes 4:16-17)

Zechariah|14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the

LORD will smite all the people that have fought against

Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon

their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes,

and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Zechariah|14:5 And ye shall flee

[Guest Coral Snake]

Revelation 14:14 to 14:20 sets the rapture after the appearance of the Beast and the False Prophet but before the wrath of god.

Revelation 14:14

And I looked and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Revelation 14:15

And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust

in thy sickle and reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

Revelation 14:16

And he that had sat on the cloud thrust in his sicle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Coral Snake (This is the Rapture).

Revelation 14:17

And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

Revelation 14:18

And another angel came out from the alter, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the Wrath of God.

Revelation 14:19

And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Coral Snake (This is the Wrath, These verses are clearly setting a Post Trib-Pre Wrath model for the Rapture.)

Edited September 18, 2004 by Coral Snake

[John3;16]

Jesus is returning with his saints(church) Rev 19:14, this is:

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings John 3:16,

those saints who will be martyred during the millennium will also reign with Christ. They are apart of the church.

Perhaps you have misstated here. Do you want to explain?

You might wish to exegete the scriptures you are quoting. I take them one way, and it appears you take them another.

You have mentioned that the "Lord comes with all His saints", are you aware that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord? Do you believe there are "saints" in heaven RIGHT NOW with Jesus?

How many saints would you say are "raptured"?

Where does the "rapture" come in relation to the "resurrection"?

Who do you say the "two witnesses" are?

How many "raptures" and "resurrections" do you see in scripture?

Where do you see Israel being saved as in Romans 11 where it says "All Israel shall be saved?"

What do you say the "body of Christ" looks like when the Lord Comes according to Eph. 1-3?

Did you notice that AFTER Rev. 3, there is no further reference to the "church", except at the end of Rev. and it only refers to the beginning statements of that book? Why do you think that only "saints" are referred to after Rev. 3?

Do you believe that Christ will "leave behind ANY of His saints" when He comes? Think about the parable of the ONE lost sheep of the 99.

If the OT prophets were killed, and Jesus was killed, and the disciples were killed, except for perhaps one, and all the martyrs between the cross and now were killed and the saints of Revelation are killed, what makes you think ANYONE will escape being killed?

Looking forward to your responses.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Trinity]

How many saints would you say are "raptured"?

All of the "Church of Christ." The saints come into play after the rapture.

Where does the "rapture" come in relation to the "resurrection"?

Before the Tribulation.

Who do you say the "two witnesses" are?

The two witnesses burst forth on the world scene during the first half of the seven year tribulation period. They may have their own ministries already for by this time the restoration process has already been taking place; when the first trumpet had spoken, the elders had already been called to lay their crowns at the feet of Jesus. Beware of any who call themselves the two witnesses, they are only trying to draw the elect unto themselves. When the time comes they will speak, but not of themselves.

The two witnesses are among the most dramatic characters of Scripture. They prophesy before the world for three and a half years (1,260 days) (11:3). During this time, they can strike the earth with whatever plague they desire, and cannot be harmed by their enemies (11:5-6). Ultimately, they are killed by the beast (11:7) but they rise to life in three and a half days (11:11).

How many "raptures" and "resurrections" do you see in scripture?

I see 1 rapture, and 1 gathering of the saints.

Where do you see Israel being saved as in Romans 11 where it says "All Israel shall be saved?"

This doesn't don't apply the verse to all Jews throughout history, but only to "all Jews" who are alive at the end. Supposedly, at the end of the tribulation, all remaining Jews in Israel will look up, see Christ coming in the clouds, realize He is the true Messiah, believe in Him, and thus "All Israel will be saved."

The "all Israel that is saved" does not apply to all Jews throughout history, nor can it apply to a select favored group who become instant believers when Jesus Christ comes crashing down through the sky. By that time, it is too late to believe.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Trinity,

Of course we disagree on the timing of the rapture, but in regards to:

This doesn't don't apply the verse to all Jews throughout history, but only to "all Jews" who are alive at the end. Supposedly, at the end of the tribulation, all remaining Jews in Israel will look up, see Christ coming in the clouds, realize He is the true Messiah, believe in Him, and thus "All Israel will be saved."

What do you think these verses mean:

Romans 10:14-15 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Romans 11:30-32 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Ephesians 2:17-22 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Please exegete these scriptures for me.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Trinity]

Sorry it came from a Commentary... I don't have enough time to type

Ill answer in my own words later

Romans 10:14-15

How necessary it was that the gospel should be preached to the Gentiles, v. 14, 15. This was what the Jews were so angry with Paul for, that he was the apostle of the Gentiles, and preached the gospel to them. Now he shows how needful it was to bring them within the reach of the forementioned promise, an interest in which they should not envy to any of their fellow-creatures. (1.) They cannot call on him in whom they have not believed. Except they believe that he is God, they will not call upon him by prayer; to what purpose should they? The grace of faith is absolutely necessary to the duty of prayer; we cannot pray aright, nor pray to acceptation, without it. He that comes to God by prayer must believe, Heb. 11:6. Till they believed the true God, they were calling upon idols, O Baal, hear us. (2.) They cannot believe in him of whom they have not heard. some way or other the divine revelation must be made known to us, before we can receive it and assent to it; it is not born with us. In hearing is included reading, which is tantamount, and by which many are brought to believe (Jn. 20:31): These things are written that you may believe. But hearing only is mentioned, as the more ordinary and natural way of receiving information. (3.) They cannot hear without a preacher; how should they? Somebody must tell them what they are to believe. Preachers and hearers are correlates; it is a blessed thing when they mutually rejoice in each other

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Trinity,

I appreciate the response. BTW, whose commentary is it? Regardless I agree with it, EXCEPT it does not address the issue of the CONTEXT of Chapter 10 of Romans. Romans 9, 10 and 11 are specifically oriented to the salvation of the Jews, although there IS application to all of Christiandom.

So when you respond, please respond to the CONTEXT.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

P.S. Something else I would like you to exegete is Deut 4:26-31. Tell me if and when you think it occured or will occur.

[Trinity]

Greetings Trinity,

I appreciate the response. BTW, whose commentary is it? Regardless I agree with it, EXCEPT it does not address the issue of the CONTEXT of Chapter 10 of Romans. Romans 9, 10 and 11 are specifically oriented to the salvation of the Jews, although there IS application to all of Christiandom.

So when you respond, please respond to the CONTEXT.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

P.S. Something else I would like you to exegete is Deut 4:26-31. Tell me if and when you think it occured or will occur.

I don't understand the question deeling with these verses...

It about how Israel after awhile would served other gods, and God got angry so he scattered them, and they will serve other gods, and only a few will servive out of all Israel. But God said the servivers can find God again. And God said he would not destroy them, he will abanden them,neither will he forget his covenant with Israel, For God is a merciful God.

What does that have to do with any point you are making? To me that verse is about how Israel Will come Back to God.

[John3;16]

QUOTE

those saints who will be martyred during the millennium will also reign with Christ. They are apart of the church.

Perhaps you have misstated here. Do you want to explain?

I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, I don't believe you can prove pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib rapture, but there are clues, such as the saints returning with Christ, marriage super, ect..., as far as tribulation saints, I believe there will be those saved during the tribulation, there will be the two prophets, the 144,000 witnesses, and mention of a strong angle flying overhead and proclaiming the gospel, and warning those who dwell on the earth not to receive the mark, the plauges are for those who do not receive the mark, so any who does not receive the mark will have an opportunity to be saved, I also don't believe that Revelation is in a chronological order, you must read the context to determine its time line.