Should Churches speak to poltical issues of the da

[Scudbuddy]

I think of the German church in the 1920's and 30's. When Mein Kampf was written by Hitler, many Church leaders knew it was hateful and destructive. But kept their mouth shut because it wasn't the churches responsibility to take on matters of state. In the mid 30's it was too late. Those that did, were silenced or intimidated or killed. If the Lutheran and Catholic churches from the start had challenged the madness of King Hitler, so much hurt and pain would not have erupted all over the world.

The second best movie about the holocaust is a movie called "Amen". It is a true story, and it will open your eyes to the importance of the church in the decisions of national policy.

[sachi]

SCUDBUDDY

I think of the German church in the 1920's and 30's. When Mein Kampf was written by Hitler, many Church leaders knew it was hateful and destructive. But kept their mouth shut because it wasn't the churches responsibility to take on matters of state. In the mid 30's it was too late. Those that did, were silenced or intimidated or killed. If the Lutheran and Catholic churches from the start had challenged the madness of King Hitler, so much hurt and pain would not have erupted all over the world.

That is so true.

That is THE huge point, you make Scudbuddy .

And that is the dilemma for the church in America.

The concern is that is when we make room in the pulpit for political issues , we not only detract from solely teaching God's Word, but we open the door to a secular criteria being applied to a church's legitimacy and autonomy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You probably have a better handle on that part of history in Germany prior to and during WW II, but from what I recollect from my readings Hitler gradually muted the churches - and made behind the scenes deals with Church leaders.

The other difference was that in Germany there were essentially two main Church bodies: the State Church which was Lutheran - ( pastors were payed by the State so they had an obligation to comply with the state's rulings), and the Catholic Church. So it was easier in some respects to bring under control

Other Protestant denominations also existed , and many did protest early on, but they were immediately silenced.

ALSO a contingent from the State Lutheran Church separated and became an independant body as the "CONFESSING CHURCH" - (Barth, Bonhoeffer, Neimueller) - but they were eventually all but silenced -

It was a horrble time - the ecclesiological voice of righteousness in a Nation had become seriously fragmented.

[stevehut]

If the Lutheran and Catholic churches from the start had challenged the madness of King Hitler, so much hurt and pain would not have erupted all over the world.

I agree.

I also believe it's one thing for churches to actively get involved in politics. But Christian people could have spoken up. I do believe that, one way or another, the Christians of Europe could have done more.

Unfortunately, hindsight is always clearer than foresight. And it's hard to put myself in the shoes of the people who were there at the time.

[sachi]

I also believe it's one thing for churches to actively get involved in politics. But Christian people could have spoken up. I do believe that, one way or another, the Christians of Europe could have done more.

That is right.

Transferring that statement to the current situation in the States :

Do you think Christiand in the US can speak up and galvanize without using the Church as a forum . . .?

OR are the two - the Teaching fo the WORD and its social implications - so intricately bound together the church ultimately is forced to speak on these issues ? ??

[Scudbuddy]

SCUDBUDDY

I think of the German church in the 1920's and 30's. When Mein Kampf was written by Hitler, many Church leaders knew it was hateful and destructive. But kept their mouth shut because it wasn't the churches responsibility to take on matters of state. In the mid 30's it was too late. Those that did, were silenced or intimidated or killed. If the Lutheran and Catholic churches from the start had challenged the madness of King Hitler, so much hurt and pain would not have erupted all over the world.

That is so true.

That is THE huge point, you make Scudbuddy .

And that is the dilemma for the church in America.

The concern is that is when we make room in the pulpit for political issues , we not only detract from solely teaching God's Word, but we open the door to a secular criteria being applied to a church's legitimacy and autonomy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You probably have a better handle on that part of history in Germany prior to and during WW II, but from what I recollect from my readings Hitler gradually muted the churches - and made behind the scenes deals with Church leaders.

The other difference was that in Germany there were essentially two main Church bodies: the State Church which was Lutheran - ( pastors were payed by the State so they had an obligation to comply with the state's rulings), and the Catholic Church. So it was easier in some respects to bring under control

Other Protestant denominations also existed , and many did protest early on, but they were immediately silenced.

ALSO a contingent from the State Lutheran Church separated and became an independant body as the "CONFESSING CHURCH" - (Barth, Bonhoeffer, Neimueller) - but they were eventually all but silenced -

It was a horrble time - the ecclesiological voice of righteousness in a Nation had become seriously fragmented.

Actually my point is that when Hitler wrote his book, a national debate took place within Germany in the early 20's. Hitler was an obscure voice that over time became a legitimate voice because the church as a whole did not take up the torch against him. Many of them did not do this because of the whole issue of "Church and State" arguments. This was the time to take him down. By the time some of them took the matter up, it was too late. And in the movie "Amen", even then, if the church felt strongly enough about it, even in the late 30's and early 40's they were able to stop some atrocities. But they had early on lost the battle about the Jews because of their silence early on had validated the Nazis holocaust message.

Yes, there were the voices of the "Confessing Church." Too little, too late. You hit the bad guys before they are in control. Otherwise, you validate them with your silence.

Steve,

Thanks!

[sachi]

Right, Scudbuddy.

I couldn't agree with you more.

But how does that translate to the situation i n the States where the Churches have tax exempt staus provided they don't make political statements.

Do you think churches should opt for being taxed?

That would give them the freedom to speak.

It seems now that they are being invigilated/ controlled by 'watchdog' groups that check to see if any church is violating this proscriptive.

Blessings -Sachi

[stevehut]

Now that I think about it, I seem to recall reading several years ago that the Pope made a deal with Hitler. The Catholic church could operate freely in Germany, as long as they agreed not to criticize the Third Reich.

Or something like that.

[stevehut]

Do you think churches should opt for being taxed? That would give them the freedom to speak.

Nope.

Apart from the taxation issue, churches still need to protect their spiritual integrity. I wouldn't want to belong to a church that was a raving political action committee.

[sachi]

STEVE HUT:

You're right.

The Catholic Church officially sold out as did the State Lutheran Church.

Pretty horrifying

But there were priests and nuns and Lutheran believers, and believers from all denominations who challenged the Reich policies and were sent to jail or worse to the camps and eliminated.

Many were tortured.

Yeah, that artical about the watchdog groups got me - there is a lot in there that has implications -

Blessings- Sachi

[Scudbuddy]

Sachi,

I believe that the church in America is going to go through radical change. I pray for the state to tax the church. Why? Because it will force those out of the business of ministry, thus keeping only the ones who actually minister because of a true calling. As a minister myself, I have met too many men who have no business in the ministry because the ministry is strictly a business.

I believe that the day is coming when the church will find it necessary to meet in homes only. That men will minister out of love for God, and not a paycheck alone. (I am not against the cloth being paid, but money has become such a central issue to the office, that the only way for there to be a change in the ministry is for there to be a radical change within the structure. Take away the financial benefits of ministering, and many in this field will leave right away. Some because of a lack of faith, and others because God never actually called them into the ministry. Just fell into it for whatever reason. Others because it is just a job. One example of this is a former pastor who was my boss, and the administrator of the church I was a youth pastor in. He told me, "David, you know why my office is the last office? Because I want anyone with a problem to have to pass by all the other pastors before they get to me."

If the church would stop worrying about the what the state will do, and just worry about what God thinks, then we will find a church in the face of evil everytime. Hopefully it will be in the highest form of warfare. On our knees. But also when necessary, like John the Baptist, in the face of leaders and tyrants. Even if it means our heads roll later.