Spin off From "IS Jesus God" thread in Doctrinal

[other one]

nChrist

Actually your post is too long to be replied and I don't have the time to reply to all that. That doesn't mean it is irrefutable, but it's too lengthy, so I am sorry if I won't respond although I have responded to some of these points in my conversation with shiloh, you can see our conversation from the beginning and participate in it if you like.

It is an irrefutable fact that Jesus Christ is God if one uses the Holy Bible as the authority. Obviously, I do use the Holy Bible as my authority, and that's the reason why I posted the proof from the Holy Bible. I could have posted much more, but what I posted should be enough if you accept the Holy Bible as God's Word. Again, I obviously do.

Israel rejected Jesus Christ as God, King, and Messiah. This is why Israel has been set aside and will remain set aside until Israel cries out to God in the Tribulation Period fearing total annihilation. Jesus Christ will answer Israel's cry at His Second Coming in great and holy wrath. All of the survivors in Israel will accept Jesus Christ as God, King, and Messiah. By this time, 2/3 of Israel has been killed and 3/4 of the world population has been killed. Jesus Christ is the only one who can restore peace on earth, and He will make a peace like the world has never known. This is future Bible Prophecy yet to be fulfilled, but it will be most perfectly. The time for the horrors of the Tribulation Period is probably soon. The day will come when the survivors of the Tribulation period will all bow to Jesus Christ as God and King.

One of the first steps in this discussion should be to establish some common ground: do you accept the Holy Bible as the authority or not? If you do, the evidence is overwhelming that Jesus Christ is and has always been God - One with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. If you don't accept the Holy Bible as the authority, this would be a difficult discussion with you as simply a curious person.

What does the Greek and Hebrew words for god mean. Can we come to an agreement of what "God" is?????

When speaking of God, we have both being and personage. Elohim is God that is not a "name." That is what God is. YHVH is a person. That is His Name. That is His personage. YHVH is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. More to the point, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all God in that they share the same essential nature or being. But they are three different personages in that one "being."

In your mind, draw a big circle and place a label called "God" above the circle. Inside the circle place the personages of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That is God. It is not explainable, but it is how the Bible represents God. We have no frame of reference for this kind of thing in our world. It will remain mystery at least on this side of eternity.

The place where you and I would disagree Shilo is that i do not believe that YHVH is the Father. i believe that YHVH is the Word. What Jesus was before he set aside the form of God and bacame flesh. Several people saw the God of Israel and marveled that they did not die, and Jesus told us tha no one had seen the Father...... that would include Adam when he walked with God in the guarden of Eden.

[Guest shiloh357]

The place where you and I would disagree Shilo is that i do not believe that YHVH is the Father. i believe that YHVH is the Word.

The Bible does not support that. YHVH is first used of God in Genesis 2. It is His redemptive Name it is connected to all of His redemptive attributes. The Name of God is NEVER limited to only Jesus.

What Jesus was before he set aside the form of God and bacame flesh. Several people saw the God of Israel and marveled that they did not die, and Jesus told us tha no one had seen the Father...... that would include Adam when he walked with God in the guarden of Eden

The verse you are mentioning is John 1:17. No one as "seen" the Father. The Greek word denotes a physical act of seeing but carries a much stronger connotation in terms of understanding or mental perception which fits the last half of the verse, in which it claims that Jesus has declared Him.

To limit YHVH to only Jesus is not something you are really going to be able to develop, biblcally.

[nChrist]

What does the Greek and Hebrew words for god mean. Can we come to an agreement of what "God" is?????

In what context? I don't like to play semantics games. Select a specific portion of Scripture and we'll talk about it. Until then, there are false gods and idols with a little "g" and the Eternal Godhead of Christianity and Salvation with a big "G". So, start with an inanimate object like a rock being worshiped as a god with a little "g". If two Christians were talking, they could easily come to an agreement: God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit. I don't worship or recognize false gods, so I doubt I could reach any agreement with a Muslim, Buddhist, etc. If you want to try and answer the question without context, go ahead. It would be somewhere between theos and Elohim. However, a word study with a person from a false religion would probably be a waste of time.

[A Muslim]

I have not ridiculed you at all. But your exegesis of that chapter is very poor and you are employing bad hermeneutics. That is not ridicule. It is just a plain and honest assement of your skills in handling the Bible.

If you have really gave evidence why my exegesis was poor, then you may have had a point, but you are just saying:"your exegesis is poor" without giving reason except for stating your faith. I have no problem whether you ridicule me or not, but the problem is that you said nothing proving me wrong.

I am saying that we need to look at the entire Bible. The Bible contains a plethora of references to Jesus as God.

If all of them are like those scriptures you quoted here, then you are actually proving my point. Till now I haven't talked in much detail about the evidence I use that Jesus is not God. I have just mentioned one which was John 17:3 and you failed to answer it, just saying it's a poor exegesis, why? you didn't say but surely because it's against your faith.

It is a reference to His second coming when He returns to Jerusalem to destroy the enemies of Israel and establish His Kingdom there.

Actually Adam Clarke disagrees with you:

"for hereafter, in a few years, ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power,"

http://studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=026

2000 years passed and nothing has yet to happen.

All that verse is saying is that God is not like men who lie. Man cannot be depended on to be honest all of time. Lying, deceit and trickery are part of human nature and God does not possess that aspect human nature. God is not a man who lies or a son of man who goes back on His word. God can be trusted to do exactly what He says He will do.

But this is a clear proof that God is not a son of man at all, otherwise he would have said God is not a son of man who repents, but he didn't say it that way, He totally denied this attribute for Himself, which means that the son of man is NOT God.

"Again the High Priest addressed Him. "In the name of the ever-living God," he said, "I now put you on your oath. Tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God." "I am He," replied Jesus."

Nothing in the word son of God tells that he is God, I have already discussed it.

Jesus admitted that He was God and the High Priest declared that enough for Jesus to be guilty of blasphemy. It is as simple as that.

Jesus has already answered them before in John 10:34-35, he has nothing to do with them if they made up their mind. Tell me, if the high priest knew that he was about to kill God, how would he dare something like that whatever wicked he was?

Wrong. Jesus did not claim to simply be in God's foreknowledge. Jesus said before Abraham was "I AM" which is a direct reference to deity and in the very next verse, they picked up stones to kill Him for blasphemy. You are desparately tryiing to assign false values to the text.

The word "I AM" doesn't mean divinty, anyone can say I am. Had the word "ego eimi" really meant Jehovah, it wouldn't have been translated but would have been written as Jehovah. Besides, others said it:

Some said, "It is he." Others said, "No, but he is like him." He kept saying, "I am the man." (John 9:9), so the beggar also may become a divine!! Actually Jesus means "I am the Messiah", and this is very clear with what he said to the Samaritan woman:

Joh 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messiah cometh (he that is called Christ): when he is come, he will declare unto us all things. Joh 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

Which was said in other translation:

(MKJV) Jesus said to her, I AM, the One speaking to you.

This is a very clear proof that he didn't mean to claim divinity by that word.

The text of John 8 does not say that Jesus was just a thought in God foreknowledge but that God prophesied the future redemption to Abraham. Jesus is claiming to have been there with the Father even before Abraham was born. Jesus pre-existed this world with the Father. It was Abraham who only existed in the foreknowledge of God.

Whether it meant the future redemption or not, it is saying that what Abraham saw was what will happen when Jesus comes. Jesus just claims to have been there, didn't say anything about the word "with the Father". This could have been in God's foreknowledge and nothing is against it except for your faith.

[A Muslim]

Jesus is called God in both Old and New Testaments. (Is. 7:14, 9:6-7; Jer. 23:5-6; Mic. 5:2, Malachi 3:1-2, Psalm 45:1, 6-7, Psalm 110:1-3, Zechariah 6:12-13, John 1:1-3, Jn. 3:18, Jn. 9:35-37Col. 1:15-18; 2:8-10;

As for Isaiah 7:14, I can see nothing in it proving that Jesus is God, whether it refers to Jesus or not, it is talking about the virgin(or the young maid) who will be pregnant and have a son called Immanuel (God with us) not Jesus, even the name doesn't indicate that Jesus is God as it was well known through Hebrew culture that many were named with suffix el referring to God like Ishmael, Israel, Joel.

I don't know at all where can I find something related to Jesus being God in Jeremiah 23 nor in Micah nor in Malachi nor in Zechariah. All are generally talking about the Messiah's coming not about Jesus being God. Psalm 45 actually refers to Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him), see here, Psalm 110:1-3 also doesn't say that Jesus is God, you know Hebrew better than me and know the difference between the Hebrew words the Lord and my lord.

As for John 1, first of all, it is not Jesus who said it, these are the words of Gospel John's writer where there is a doubt in him being John the apostle or an unknown, what is more important is that there is a mistranslation to this verse, the first "God" in this verse is "hotheos" in Greek origin which means God (with capital G) and with ho a definite article, while the second is "theos" with no definite article which is supposed to be translated into god (with small g), and of course there is a big difference between both words , since God means Jehovah of the Old Testament, while the word god, means a god for pagans which is not meant in this verse, or god which means master as told about Moses (Peace be upon him) in Exodus 7:1" And Jehovah said to Moses, See, I have made you a god to Pharaoh. And Aaron Myour brother shall be your prophet." Or Psalms 82:6 " "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.' (Psalms 82:6)".

As for John 1:3

Joh 1:3 All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.

These things doesn't necessarily mean creation, but it is his religion, and saving the people by faith in God, and in him as a prophet, since many scripts prove that Jesus (Peace be upon him) is not God.

John 3;18 and 9:35, we have been talking about what the word son of God mean and you haven't provided evidence proving it just refers to God only till now.

So actually, you brought nothing new in your argument here except for John 1:1 which I have replied here. Others are either referring to Jesus as the son of God, or general prophecies from the OT about the Messiah. Still waiting for evidence that Jesus said that he is God not the son of God.

* Jesus refers to God has His Father and Himself as God's Son - Blasphemy in Jewish theology.

He answered the Jews concerning that point and brought a verse calling mere people gods, why do you - as well as the Jews- consider blaspheming because he said "I am the son of God"?

* Jesus claims to have personal power over death (vv. 17-18)

He took this power is taken from his Father " I can do nothing by myself"

* He claims to be the only Way to of salvation (vv. 1-9)

So what? He is the only way to salvation because he is a true prophet sent by God and all people must follow him. Prophet Muhammad has the same case and none of us say that he is God, but since he is sent from God, we must follow him and if we didn't, we'll reach a dead end, and this applies to any prophet.

* He claims to be able to impart Eternal Life (vv. 28-30)

He clearly says that the Father is the one who gave it to him not that he has it by his own, and you can see what he meant by eternal life in John 17:3, the verse which I gave last post and you didn't answer it but just ridiculed me.

Not true. Keep in mind that they saw Him as the Messiah as is evidence in John 12 when they hailed as King Messiah.

Still you are talking as if I agree with you that the Messiah is God. No, the foretold Messiah is not God nor do the Jews agree with you.

Jesus Is Omniscient

Mark 13:32

[A Muslim]

A. Jesus is our Savior, and the ONLY Savior according to the following Scriptures:

And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord.

(Luke 2:10-11)

Here we see the angel referring to Jesus as Savior and also Messiah the Lord or

[A Muslim]

I have never even implied that proving Jesus is the Messiah is is proving that He is God. I am simply showing from the Scriptures that Jesus is both Messiah and God. I simply used the Talmud to show that there were signs the Jews were supposed to be looking for that the Messiah would perform.

You have shown already above that this is what you imply through these scriptures in the OT and the Talmud. I am not a Jew to prove to me that Jesus is the Messiah, I have never asked you as I believe in Jesus as well, we are talking about Jesus being God not Messiah.

Jesus came to the world to save us from our sins. Jesus primary purpose on earth was not to prove He was God.

How so? The most important thing is to know who is your God, how could this be a trivial issue as you are trying to show it. It is even the first commandment in the ten commandments which Jesus cited. I really don't know, what would be important if teaching them who is their God isn't.

It doesn't matter if Jesus used it or not. The fact remains that it gives very compelling evidence that Jesus is God. The New Testament writers cite a lot of Old Testament Scripture to show Jesus fulfillment of what was prophesied of the Messiah.

Again you are mixing between believing that Jesus is the Messiah and Jesus is God since the Messiah is God, I have nothing to do with the first issue, I am concerned with the second, where nowhere in the NT did Jesus cite the OT to prove that the Messiah is God. So please don't use the verses saying that Jesus is the foretold Messiah only as they are irrelevant. This looks like I cite the verses telling that God is one to disprove the Trinity, would you consider it relevant? So again, where did Jesus cite Isaiah 9:6 to prove that he is the Messiah who is God as mentioned in the OT? Or was this also a trivial issue that Jesus didn't concern about?

El as used in the context of Is. 9 direclty refers to God. Gibbor in Hebrew means "mighty." The Jewish Publication Society's translation of the Old Testament (Tenach) translates EL Gibbor as "Mighty God." I speak and read Hebrew amd very familiar with how he words are used.

Again, there is a difference between god and God. Actually JPS didn't translate it. They left it in Hebrew as it is, you may speak Hebrew, Jews speak Hebrew as well, and none of them understood that it tells that Messiah is God, nor did Jesus himself.

In Hebrew proper names do not need a definite article. Definite articles are used on construct nouns; they are not not proper names.

This is not a proper name, otherwise Jesus would have used it for himself, he never did, nor did he even quote the verse. Doesn't he know his name? It seems like it is just an attribute.

The translators don't disagree with me. It is unfortunate that the translations don't reflect the level of scholarship we have available to us today, but that is how it is. We have more light on Hebrew now than ever before. The best translation of avi ad is "father of eternity."

You are contradicting yourself, first the translators don't disagree with you, then you accuse them of being inefficient because they don't have the tools we have today, as if there is no new translations nor did anyone know Hebrew before.

Jesus is not your father. Jesus is the Son of God and He is the Savior of those who trust in Him for salvation. Jesus is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords. He has absolutely NOTHING to do with Islam.

So am I supposed to convert to Christianity now after these words? I have nothing to do with your faith. I can these same words against you as well.

[A Muslim]

So am I supposed to convert to Christianity now after these words? I have nothing to do with your faith. I can these same words against you as well.

...and we're supposed to convert to your faith after you and your kind knock down three of our buildings, kill three thousand of our people and then have the gall to act surprised when people express outrage at the very idea of building a mosque on the site of so much innocent death? Get real. You are not interested in learning anything, so go away.

Islam has nothing to do with 9/11. This was a conspiracy made by US government to justify their invasion to Afghanistan and Iraq, not my words, but the words of many American analysts, see zeit geist part 2 and loose changes documentaries on youtube. Even if those who did these actions were Muslims, Islam has nothing to do with actions of some individuals.

[A Muslim]

One of the first steps in this discussion should be to establish some common ground: do you accept the Holy Bible as the authority or not? If you do, the evidence is overwhelming that Jesus Christ is and has always been God - One with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. If you don't accept the Holy Bible as the authority, this would be a difficult discussion with you as simply a curious person.

As for the Bible, I don't believe it is the pure word from God although it may contain some truth. But I am using the Bible here to prove that even within your holy book, you don't have a sound evidence that Jesus is God. You can read my conversation with shiloh as it will tell you my point and it already has answers to most of your post and if you have any comments on them, you can ask me.

[A Muslim]

What else did Jesus say about Himself?

John 8:12 - Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world ; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life."

1. Jesus said, "I am," not "My teachings are," the Light of the world. Is He not saying, "Look to Me"?

2. Can anyone but God be "the Light"?

Hi nebula

As for your first quote from Mat 26;63, calling Jesus the son of God, and John 8:58 you can see my conversation with shiloh and add your comments, as we have already been talking about these issues, what I will do here is that will answer the new arguments you brought.

Actually, I don't see a big difference between saying I am or my teachings, because both of them have the same meaning since his teachings belong to him which were already revealed by the Father, that's why he next spoke about those who will follow him, because they actually followed what he said, so they had the light of life, which is the light of following his teachings, they didn't take a part of his flesh to have the light, but they followed his teachings.

As for the answer to the second question, there are many kinds of light, the absolute light is from God, but there are many other types of light, electricity gives light! What Jesus is talking about here is the light of faith and following his teachings from God, that doesn't mean that Jesus is God.

John 20

26 After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you."

27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands ; and reach here your hand and put it into My side ; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."

28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God !"

29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed ? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

I don't see where does this say that Jesus is God, Thomas was surprised that Jesus was resurrected, like saying "O my God", Jesus wasn't talking about believing that he is God, but believing that he was resurrected. Jesus clearly said it before that the Father is the only true God:

3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (John 17:3)