Hebew mind vs. Greek mind

[Matthitjah]

I guess it depends on what your definition of murder is. David murdered and was forgiven and so did Moses. For all intensive purposes David was Saved when his flesh overrode his Father's Spirit, Law, and Will.

Nitpicking alert...

It's 'for all intents and purposes' please. Just to let you know.

Nitpicking done. Carry on.

Thanks.

Do you teach english?

Homeschooling mom. Also aspiring author. You don't want to see me pull out the red pencil...

Not the Red Pencil!

[Seriousseeker]

God used the Apostles to set forth the hope of Israel in their Messiah, the end of the Israelite (Jews) religion, and what the new testament is in the formation of the church.

Jesus said He did not come to do away with the Law and the Prophets but to fulfill them.

Thus, to say God brought about the "end" of the Israelite religion is false.

FYI, the current Jewish religion is not the same as the Israelite religion set forth in the Torah. The original religion centered around Temple and the sacrifices for atonement. Today's Judaism centers around good deeds.

You need to see that Israelites continue to keep the Torah, and they would also keep the sacrifices except, as one prominent Jewish teacher said in modern times, God took that away from us --denying that Christ was the true sacrifice.

I see that many Bible teachers also show the Israelite (Jewish) religion was done away at the cross. The veil was rent and the priest's garments were rent --both being a significant picture of the end of that religion when they rejected their Messiah. Jesus Christ fulfilled the prophecy and types of old, but not the religion. That ended (see Galatian Epistle), and the church is not an extention of that religion of old, but a New Testament in Christ forming the church --the bride of Christ. Any Israelite today must leave that religion and come as the Gentiles to Christ to be saved.

C. I. Scofield in his writings said that in the New Testament, religion is always used in a bad sense --not synonymous with salvation or spirituality (Acts 26; Gal. 1; Col. 2); except in James 1:27 where it is a ref. to a good work. In Revelation we can see there will again be temple worship of God for Israel (without sacrifices) for the restoration of Israel, but not their religion of old.

- Seriousseeker

Edited December 21, 2010 by Seriousseeker

[nebula]

God used the Apostles to set forth the hope of Israel in their Messiah, the end of the Israelite (Jews) religion, and what the new testament is in the formation of the church.

Jesus said He did not come to do away with the Law and the Prophets but to fulfill them.

Thus, to say God brought about the "end" of the Israelite religion is false.

FYI, the current Jewish religion is not the same as the Israelite religion set forth in the Torah. The original religion centered around Temple and the sacrifices for atonement. Today's Judaism centers around good deeds.

You need to see that Israelites continue to keep the Torah, and they would also keep the sacrifices except, as one prominent Jewish teacher said in modern times, God took that away from us --denying that Christ was the true sacrifice.

The religious Jews keep what part of Torah they can, yes. But the sacrifices have been replaced with good deeds. The whole religion of the Israelites was centered around the sacrifices. That has been taken away, so the Torah they practice is not completely the Torah.

I see that many Bible teachers also show the Israelite (Jewish) religion was done away at the cross.

I went to a Christian liberal arts college full of Bible teachers shoving liberal theology down our throats.

Being a Bible teacher does not make you correct.

The veil was rent and the priest's garments were rent --both being a significant picture of the end of that religion when they rejected their Messiah.

I disagree about both.

The priest rending his garments was nothing more than proclaiming judgment.

And again, it was a fulfillment, not an ending. If it ended that day, the Temple would have come down that day. But no. It was the separation between man and God that was torn asunder. The Lord still proclaimed His truth through the Temple.

Jesus Christ fulfilled the prophecy and types of old, but not the religion. That ended (see Galatian Epistle), and the church is not an extention of that religion of old, but a New Testament in Christ forming the church --the bride of Christ. Any Israelite today must leave that religion and come as the Gentiles to Christ to be saved.

The Torah and the Prophets are the religion of the OT. Ever notice there isn't an actual name given to the religion of the Hebrews?

Romans 11 - the Jews (natural branches) were cut off of the tree on account of unbelief, and the Gentiles who believed were grafted in to that tree. It is not a new tree!

And it is "Covenant" not "Testament".

I also disagree that a Jew has to stop being a Jew to have faith in their own Messiah!

[Botz]

The whole of Israel was governed/dominated by the Law...every area of a persons life was infused with the Law.

The prime example of a person devoted to the Law in the books of the New Covenant was the Apostle Paul.

The Law of the L-rd was perfect.

The weakness of the Law was the human heart.

The purpose of the Law, was not merely to impose a set of conditions and rituals upon a nation, but to guide them, teach them and lead them in the ways of G-d to the time when One would come ...about whom the Law constantly spoke...no more shadows or types, but the substance, and what substance....the One who would be the fulfillment of the Law...the One who gave Moses the Law in the first place.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham

[Matthitjah]

The whole of Israel was governed/dominated by the Law...every area of a persons life was infused with the Law.

The prime example of a person devoted to the Law in the books of the New Covenant was the Apostle Paul.

The Law of the L-rd was perfect.

The weakness of the Law was the human heart.

The purpose of the Law, was not merely to impose a set of conditions and rituals upon a nation, but to guide them, teach them and lead them in the ways of G-d to the time when One would come ...about whom the Law constantly spoke...no more shadows or types, but the substance, and what substance....the One who would be the fulfillment of the Law...the One who gave Moses the Law in the first place.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

If Torah was to lead a nation in the fullness of time, to the One who had led them into the Promised Land (which it was), then anyone who does not go where the Torah leads, is not keeping Torah, has not understood Torah and will wander in a wilderness...the focus of Torah comes to a pin-point on Messiah Yeshua...there is no other place to go, and a person either falls on the Rock, or the Rock will fall on them....That is why Yeshua is the doorway of the sheepfold...Torah leads to this doorway.

John 10:9"I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

2Cor 3:12Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, 13and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. 14But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

The most Jewish thing a Jew can do is believe in Messiah Yeshua HaMashiach...far from detracting from his Jewishness, it establishes it, and agrees with G-ds Torah...

In a very real sense, the Jewish religion/Law is what the New Covenant is all about, and we as Gentiles, far from evolving to a new religion, are by faith grafted into the religion of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob...not that we become Jewish, but that the covenant promises have been extended to us who were afar off.

Amen and Hallelujah!

[JCISGD]

hmmm, just how did God intend to provoke Israel to Jealousy then?

You only get jealous if you look over your neighbours fence and see something you havnt got. In the case of the Gentile Christian its salvation without having any observances and no cerimonial laws. They dont even have keep the seventh day as their sabbath.

God knew that after Christ`s resurrection the gospel would go out to all nations, its ludicrous to think He would want or try to get them to do what even His circumcised nation would not.

There is no Hebrew vs Greek mindset, there is only Christ. Sure there are advantages to learning ones heritage but its not imperative.

[mizzdy]

hmmm, just how did God intend to provoke Israel to Jealousy then?

You only get jealous if you look over your neighbours fence and see something you havnt got. In the case of the Gentile Christian its salvation without having any observances and no cerimonial laws. They dont even have keep the seventh day as their sabbath.

God knew that after Christ`s resurrection the gospel would go out to all nations, its ludicrous to think He would want or try to get them to do what even His circumcised nation would not.

There is no Hebrew vs Greek mindset, there is only Christ. Sure there are advantages to learning ones heritage but its not imperative.

You do realize that Romans 10 is refering to Due. 32:21 don't you? That God knew the nation of peoples He pulled out of Egypt would not always be good, knew that they would fall into idolatry. God knew that when He sent His Son that there would be sects of people that had changed His Torah around to suit themselves and He also knew that with the sacrifice of His Son that gentiles would not have to 'convert' but would be grafted in by their faith. That is the jealousy part, that those natural born were not the only people the Messiah was for, that He would bring all who accept Him into Israel and that the natural branches would become jealous of those grafted in.

And what was the things that the 'circumsized nation' would not do? the early congregation was from Israel/Jewish with gentiles grafted in, there were those who were circumsized and not who attended those congregations. Torah equals instructions, do we not need His instructions to show us what HE deems good and righteous behavior?

Salvation has never had anything to do with laws, commandments, which side your bread is buttered or how one keeps the Feasts, salvation has and always was by the Messiah even ancient Israel knew this. There is no salvation in keeping the feasts or Sabbaths its a free gift from God and if you think that any Jewish person alive today or 4 thousand years ago thought that feasts, sacrifices, or commandment was for salvation then you have a lot to learn. Even Abraham, Moses, Noah all knew there would be a Savior the Messiah who would come and give us all salvation through His blood. If you think that Yeshua came to start all kinds of new things, new churches, new practices you must be reading some bible I have never heard of cuz all my bibles tell me He is the same today, tomorrow and forever, He changes not nor does His plan of salvation, His feasts that all point to Him. It is those who keep the commandments, have the testimony of the Yeshua the Messiah who will enter into the gates of the city in the kingdom that is coming. Please JC go and do some reading, serious studies on all this and it might help you in so many ways.

[Guest shiloh357]

hmmm, just how did God intend to provoke Israel to Jealousy then?

He wanted to provoke them to jealousy through the Gentiles. Seeing the Gentiles blessed through their own Messiah by their own God.

You only get jealous if you look over your neighbours fence and see something you havnt got.

But is is talking about "relationship" jealousy. The kind of jealousy that people in relationships have if they think someone else is infringing on their marriage or friendship. It is not talking about coveting someone else's possession. It is the kind of jealously that protects what is already yours.

In the case of the Gentile Christian its salvation without having any observances and no cerimonial laws. They dont even have keep the seventh day as their sabbath.

No one said they did.

There is no Hebrew vs Greek mindset, there is only Christ.

There is a Hebrew vs. Greek mindset. The Bible is written from the hebraic mindset. All of the cultural references are hebraic. The plays on words, the idioms and figures of speech, are all from a hebraic cultural mindset. Even Jesus is still a Jew and still operates from that hebraic mindset.

Sure there are advantages to learning ones heritage but its not imperative.

It is imperative to effective Bible study. Historical/cultural context is indespensible as a tool for understanding the Bible.

I find it interesting that objections to the cultural study of Scripture only occur when we are talking about hebraic culture. So long as one is viewing the bible through a gentile cultural lense, no one really cares.

[nebula]

hmmm, just how did God intend to provoke Israel to Jealousy then?

Testimony I heard. A group of Christians who are into the Messianic stuff were at a Jewish service and they were playing a song with music similar enough to a song called Roni that they had just learned the dance to. It's a very fun dance! Since there were Jews dancing to the song this group decided to dance Roni, since they knew that one. They kept themselves in a corner because they didn't want to intrude on the congregation.

But the rabbi came over to them and asked them to come to the front and show his people how to dance! Because they were dancing with enthusiasm as if they truly loved this God they were celebrating.

That's provoking the Jews to jealousy.

[nebula]

You only get jealous if you look over your neighbours fence and see something you havnt got. In the case of the Gentile Christian its salvation without having any observances and no cerimonial laws. They dont even have keep the seventh day as their sabbath.

Addendum:

Is this what the Jewish believers in Messiah have said brought them to the faith?