Seriousseeker

Good post, Newnature! You sound like a real "born again" believer ---the only real Christians. Most of the posts I see on the various Forums of the Internet from professing Christians, are about religious ideas without the Lord Jesus even mentioned.

John seems to have the right idea. I think the main reason that there are so many sects (denominated or not), is that the flesh of man likes things to go their way, instead of bowing to God and His Word. Very often on forums we find people saying they are looking for a church that suits their likes and where they can have things and teachings that is what they believe. The Word of God must be our authority for the Christian faith, and one should be looking only for a scriptural assembly (holding to the Word only and not man's reasoning). So, there will always be those who set up more sects every year, and a few others who are gathered with the paths of old that esteem Scripture ---"rightly dividing the Word of Truth". Of course, there are voices that will deny there is any such path.

It would be better if such inquiries of me were directed to the BibleCounsel site, which can respond fully. I simply shared a ministry I find to be very much in accord with the "unity of the Faith" God enjoins us. Rather than defend traditional sectarianism, readers here should seek answers and understanding from the sources I introduced. As to the thought about the Nee-Lee Movement, I understand it as just another innovation of men to form a sect. It reportedly came out of the so-called Raven movement (a cult that separated from that revival of 1827 AD). The history shows it all. There are hundreds of sects and denominated systems in the world, which denies unity and promotes "schism" in the "one body of Chirst" ---Christians will have to answer for that. Again, let sincere seekers go to the sources given, and compare that ministry with the Word of God. Our "...redemption draweth nigh", then we (true "born again" believers) will see the truth and whether we were obeying and honoring God, or just promoting religious sects to please self.

Your skepticism is understandable when one has never known of a truly scriptural church gathering ---which is a rare fellowship in the world (and nothing is said there about perfection of individuals). Questions may be asked at the biblecounsel site for more understanding if one is a sincere seeker, and I also recommend contact with Bible Truth Publishers in Addison, IL. It holds that ALL various innovations and reasoning is perverting or at least disallowing the pre-eminence of God's Word. Scripture must be our only authority for God's ways, I believe. I see the fellowship shown at the BC site to appreciate spiritual gifts, as you wondered, though not some of the ideas people promote about them. As to "man's words", as you say, this fellowship in the world values agreement that has been shown by esteemed Bible teachers down through history and by continued readings today to confirm and know what is true. A Godly unity has continued therein for over 180 years from the revival ---as God intends. It goes on without much interest in christendom and is not a popular pathway. Those who want the simplicity of the Christian path as given in the Bible, draw near and seek to be with those few who depend on God. I hope this answers some of your questions and concerns. I don't claim to know it all, but much appreciate this recovery of Church truth. You may PM me if you wish. Look up always!

A personal view is that I appreciate "unity of the faith", as I said (and did God), which can only mean holding only to God's Word for the Christain faith; and professing Christians need to bow to the Word of God, instead of continuing sectarianism by holding to man's innovations and the many new sects every year. There is obviously an increasing move away from God's Word in the world to the preferences of religious man. I am thankful for those who also appreciate the need to be faithful to that which was given to us. God's Word will be opened in the judgment (Rev. 20:12), and the religious reasoning of men will not be regarded. I think the paper I shared is helpful.

A worthy work in the church for unity. A BRIEF OVERVIEW OF CHURCH RECOVERY Revival Of Church Truth The Watch Of God Over His Saints To Preserve Them And His Word By R. L. DeWitt The Church, as established in the beginning (Acts 2:41-42) grew and spread throughout the land, and the Apostles warned the saints as shown in the Epistles, of the dangers and need to “hold fast” to the Word ministered to them (Acts 20:28-30). They knew of the troubles and failures to come against the saints and the Church. We can see church condition after the apostolic time to have descended into darkness, and a scattering of believers in Christ for years into homes and secret places; and that for faithfulness and fellowship, to avoid persecution and death by the organized hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Religion of Popery. The RCR predominated in the government with religious leaders, who mixed Judaism with the Christian testimony and their own ordinances, and controlled all religious thought by force throughout the Middle Ages --- from about 500 A.D. to the 1500's. This is all a matter of historical record (though RC teachers say they reformed). Most people were illiterate at this time, and then a few educated priests from the RCR studied the Holy Scriptures, and began to teach that the RCR was in error ---and then had to run for their lives. This resulted in the religious police seeking them out and much persecution (see Foxe's Book Of Martyrs). One of the principal voices among the disenchanted priests was Martin Luther, who was called of God and bold to post his 95-word thesis on the door of a prominent church building, essentially stating to the Pope: "justification by faith", and not by religious works and rituals. This, as most Christians know today, brought on the Protestant Reformation movement. The believers who rallied to this opening of the Word of God became the various major denominations we know today as independent and following their own interpretations. The Word was hand written until printing was established in the 1500’s and it began to circulate. Numerous denominated sects rose up following the religious practices they had learned in one thousand years of oppression under the RCR; yet, thankfully the gospel message was embraced. In the early 1800's after the gospel message was thriving, God began to recover church truth as many saints were moved to leave the established and organized religious denominations with their hierarchy, rituals, and innovations. That is when the so-called "brethren movement" was formed (1827 AD) with such believers as J. N. Darby, J. G. Bellett, G. V. Wigram, W. Kelly, C. H. Mackintosh, who held firmly to the Scripture and expression of the truth of "one body in Christ". Such faith was not understood and in practice anywhere in the world. That good recovery of church truth was a precious work of God in AD 1827, even as the revival of the gospel truth in circa 1500. As the gospel was revived in a public way through a number of faithful saints in a reformation effort to the religious world, God later moved again to also recover church truth. God's way had been lost after the apostolic period, with careless regard for the truth by those who had the responsibility to hold it and maintain it (note Acts 20:27-30). The whole church suffered by this neglect of unfaithful men. Most believers today refer to their own local Christian fellowship by various names to distinguish themselves from other believers in Christ, which is a denial of the truth of the "one body" (Rom.12 and 1 Cor.12; etc.). It is not in accord with church fundamentals. That “brethren movement” soon had a loose and open Christian fellowship separate from them and take an “Open Brethren” name, when they stood apart from that universal testimony of 1827 in Ireland and then England, and they are fairly popular in the world; but thankfully the original testimony continued in simplicity and holding firmly to the Word, though a so-called “Exclusive Brethren” group also separated and formed later. Sectarianism is always with us. Some of us have continued to withstand Satan’s work of divisions and uphold that intent of God for the universal Church, without a name or titles, and keep the true testimony as in Acts 2 and the Epistles. One can read some of the history around this movement , which does not take any name nor recognize organization not given in the Word of God, by visiting the web site at biblecounsel.homestead.com. It speaks of the need for a sound scriptural fellowship, recognizing the priesthood of all believers in love in the world as God intended for “unity of the faith”. Serious seekers may read more on this fellowship and the history by contacting Bible Truth Publishers in Addison, IL. (www.bibletruthpublishers.com) –RLD: CH04

Very sound letter, Parker ---thanks for sharing it. Yes, the end of the end times is drawing nearer, I believe. Look up!

Elaine, I wonder if you might find help by sending a letter to a city department that should be concerned about the mess in your neighborhood. Some agencies don't go looking for messes, just wait to be told. Look up anyway, and trust the Lord Jesus as your best Friend. He cares!

Here is an interesting paper to show some groupings of professing Christian beliefs. It may help one decide where they are or should be. A HISTORY OF CHRISTIAN PROFESSION AND FAILURE CIRCLES OF COMMUNION This compilation of religious groups who profess Christianity in some degree, should be carefully considered as to what is real in the faith and honoring to the Lord, or only profession or man’s ideas; for as the Lord said: “Not everyone that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom” (Mt. 7:21-23); and not all are serious about studying and obeying the Word of God or even knowing the Creator-God. The Scriptural Assembly listing shown here is the only known fellowship this writer has seen in the world determined to be in conformity to the Holy Word of Truth. It should be allowed though, that there can be some real Christians in all religious groups. – R..DeWitt, 06/11 – from a paper about 1990. CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALISTS: This is those who value the Gospel message in the Bible with emphasis on being “born again” believers, and seek Scripture verses for any doctrines; and are a loosely formed mixed multitude of very independent believers of various kinds. They are usually quite devoted to Christ and each group will have their own name, rules, and expected practices for their membership. They do not usually value church truth and expression of the universal “one body in Christ” in accord with Scripture, and prefer independence in each gathering. Within this general circle there are also found charismatic assemblies which add Pentecostal doctrine. This doctrine holds in various degrees the teachings of Jacobus Arminius (circa 1560–1609). He opposed John Calvin and believed God intended we should exercise our free will and choose our course, stating there is no certainty to salvation of the soul, and man needs to hold fast to his faith and keep praising God for hope. The various gifts as given to the Apostles are said by Pentecostalism to be the same for faithful believers. CHRISTIAN CONSERVATIVES: These Christians often consider themselves as conservative compared to the so-called High Churches, and are somewhere between Fundamentalists and the High Churches of Religious Societies. They tend to be devoted religionists emphasizing form and ceremonial routines, and may be part of a system of universal organization or an independent local gathering. RELIGIOUS SOCIETIES: This group is often called High Churches and takes the name of Christian, and quotes and applies some verses of Scripture, but is mostly about religious form and display of ceremonies, rituals, traditions, creeds, programs, etc. They recite doctrines and creeds regularly, and promote salvation by ordinances and following doctrines. Deity is more a hope than a relationship. Their allegiance is more to a hierarchy of priestly order who rule. They seem to be more as religious clubs or fraternities. RELIGIOUS CULTS: This grouping of professing Christians tend to pervert the Bible to serve their devised apostasy, which is for religious gain; and they typically have their members in religious bondage with fear by elitism of a few leaders. There are various new types forming every year. LIBERAL THEOLOGY: More of a philosophy than biblical, though they may use some biblical Scriptures to maintain their religious ideas. They are more properly social and ethical fraternities who contemplate gods, man’s ideas, and metaphysical ideologies. SCRIPTURAL ASSEMBLY: We see there are Christians gathered to the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ alone, receiving "all the counsel of God", seeking to be “rightly dividing the Word of Truth”, expressing the "one body of Christ" in the world in “unity of the faith” as the Word says; and acknowledging the priesthood of believers and yielding to the leading of the Holy Spirit. This fellowship avoids denominations and a sectarian spirit, and holds to God’s Word as the only authority for the Christian faith; and without additions, innovations, or deletions, they seek to maintain that revival of Church Truth from 1827 A.D. They usually take no name or church practice not given in the Bible for the church, and have a sense of unity and the good of the saints. One can contact Bible Truth Publishers in Addison, IL for more information on this. These kind of believers are often found in three main camps: some as described here; and others as open and quite loose gatherings somewhat like the Christian Conservatives (though preaching a real Gospel message); yet others being very strict and legal in form require uniformity in all members similar to a cult. Most denominated believers in Christ reply that they are also following only the Word of God, but upon closer examination one can often see they are not. One should consider what is meant by the description of a true “scriptural assembly”: 1) Christians gathered to the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ alone (as Matt. 18:20), means there is no other name under Heaven given among men, whereby we should gather as a collective testimony. Names and titles and various doctrines and ideas of men, are exclusive positions for certain beliefs which preclude those of us who wish to hold only to the Bible; 2) Receiving “all the counsel of God”, and “rightly dividing the Word of Truth” means just that, and the various sects of Christians (mostly those denominated) cannot honestly claim that they fully follow the Word by rightly dividing and comparing all Scriptures for the truth, by their practice of adding to or deleting from what God gives for His Church; 3) Expressing the “one body of Christ” in the world in “unity of the faith”, refers to a worldwide fellowship of true believers who act on the ground that the local gathering is only a local extension in a geographical place of the universal church. They endeavor to be all of “like-mind” in the World considering essential truth in the Word of God; 4) The priesthood of believers as shown in 1 Peter 2 speaks of the gathered saints and our work and testimony and walk individually before God, not waiting on a hierarchy of men to lead and minister; 5) Non-sectarian fellowship is a testimony that avoids denomination, and any professing Christian group that takes a name or identity independent of the universal church God established, and adds or deletes things not given by God; 6) Faithful saints gathering as in Matthew 18:20 as a work only by the Holy Spirit and not ideas of men, and according to Acts 2: 42 and the Epistles; which is what occurred in God's recovery of church truth in 1827 AD, when a number of saints set forth the Word of God fully. They separated from the various ecclesiastical sects and systems, which came out of the Roman Catholic Religion and had copied their practices; 7) Such a fellowship as described here as scriptural assembly has continued down through the years, though some have left it and started or joined others, with their imitation of this truth with carnal ideas. One might be able to tell which group here they are presently associated with, but the writer can be specific if one desires some help. There may be additional categories that could be added to this listing, and which are mostly after the ideas and preferences of men; but there can only be one scriptural fellowship testimony in the world, as God ordained and established. We ought to find it. –RLD: from biblecounsel.homestead.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I really don't think we should presume to challenge God. He can do whatever He wants whenever He wants ---it is alright with me, for He is my God and I value His Word. Though I do not know all answers, I know there is a time for every purpose under the sun, as God says. Man had to be tried on his own before God came in and showed that salvation must be of God and not man's efforts.

Thanks for sharing that. The study of the Seven Churches are recorded for our learning today about God's view of our behavior in His Church. I will send you a PM too. Look up always!

[nice verses to contemplate, and how important it is to be in submission and devoted to the Lamb of God --the Lord Jesus Christ. It is in Him that we please the Father and receive His blessings.]

Robertson is something of an evangelist, but hardly a teacher. One needs to hold to their gift and not presume to state things like that, without saying: this is just my opinion. If one visits the scientific site at icr.org, they will get well documented information and godly studies on science by Ph.D scientists who are devoted Christians.

Nice thoughts, Angel! The law is "...our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ". It shows God's high standards, and reveals our weakness and failure (like a mirror). Israel rejected grace and boasted they would keep them so it became law to them. All the Ten Commandments are found in the New Testament (except the sabbath law --for Israel). They are God's standards (not requirements for salvation). We are saved by grace, not by rules.

Very nice and touching reminder of marriage values. Look up always, dear friend, for God is ever present.

Matthew 18:15-20 is teaching about Church Truth and conduct, though the Church had not yet been established (note Matt.16:18). The ref. in verse 20 is about the place and order of a faithful gathering. God says: "where" (the place of God's appointment, not wherever --note KJV); and "two or three" (the smallest number of collective testimony); "are gathered" (by the Holy Spirit, not choosing to gather); "together" (speaking of "unity of the faith", as God also enjoins the saints); "in My Name" (for no other religious name will suffice); "there am I in the midst of them" (the place where the Lord by the Spirit will present Himself, even as Israel found in the Tabernacle ---not wherever people might design a place). This fundamental begins with the Lord among His people, as He impressed upon the Disciples, and as He also shows us in Acts 2 and the Epistles for His testimony in the world. Men, of course, have had other designs for God's testimony down through the years.

Hello friend. All mankind is trapped in sin, loneliness, trouble, hopelessness in this world, unless they know the Lord Jesus as their Savior and Lord of their life. There is no escape from sin outside of the Lord Jesus, as God says (John 3:36). Come to Him now and find peace! You can read about God's "great salvation" in John 1; John 3; John 14 in your Bible. When one receives the Lord Jesus into their heart they are "born again" by the Holy Spirit, whom God wil send into your soul for eternal salvation and blessing and leading and peace.

I believe that in both cases --the mustard seed and the leaven, we get a picture of the world coming into the Christian fellowship (Kingdom of God) and dwelling there for bad influence. The fowls come in and dwell there and add worldly ways (like also the tares among the wheat as in Matt. 13); and the leaven is introduced to change the Church by evil doctrine --for leaven is always spoken of as evil doctrine and teachings in the Bible. Luke points out these two instances of influence that the saints should be watchful and guard against it. We can see the full testimony of God in the seven mysteries of Matthew 13, where we have both the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God portrayed --i.e. profession of Christ only and possession of Christ for true faith.

I can't find this in the bible anywhere. One needs to understand who Israel is for sure. Once one truly understands who Israel is then they have the key to all understanding. Gary One will not find a specific verse that states this (like so many truths in Scripture), but taking "all the counsel of God", as the Apostle said, one can see the big picture. If one believes in the Translation of the Church (called "rapture"), they will find that the Church is taken out BEFORE the wrath of God falls on this Christ rejecting world; then, AFTER God's Tribulation time when the Lord Jesus returns again to vanquish His enemies and establish His reign in the Millennium, the Bride --Church of God, comes with Him and enjoys His reign for a thousand years on earth. AFTER the Millennium reign the Lord Jesus delivers up the Kingdom again to His Father (see 1 Cor. 15:22-28) who will restore and govern Israel on the earth; and the Bride will ever be with the Lord in the Father's house above this world. God will have an earthly people (Israel) and a heavenly people (the Bride -Church) forever.

JTC, you might like to see the following paper for some insight on Israel. A COMMENTARY ON ISRAEL’S FUTURE By R. L. DeWitt, 08/11 [Many religious people speculate about God’s mind concerning Israel ---the people in the Bible whom God called by covenant for special care (see promises to Abraham in (Genesis 12 & 17& 22 ). Popular thoughts are often guesswork and misapplying Scripture to suppose things not true to the Word of God.] Let us seek to appreciate God’s purposes and determine what is the course for Israel ---God’s chosen earthly people. Will they diminish and be destroyed, or continue and eventually prosper and be at peace? Any careful student of the Bible will see that there are three kinds of people in the world: Israelites, Gentiles, and the Church of God. Israel is a chosen earthly people, presently under discipline, but always in the mind of God for good. They are presently set aside, but will be preserved and restored in a day to come with blessings on the earth forever. The Church is a called out and redeemed people as a heavenly bride today, who will go to be with Christ forever. All other souls are Gentiles ---the gender of mankind. The nation called Israel today was formed in 1948 as a sovereign state, and the people that returned and settled in that land reclaimed what God gave them a very long time ago, as the Bible shows. Their return was allowed by God, but not directed by Him, for He will personally re-gather them in the “promised land” one day in the future, in triumph over all their enemies as prophecy shows. The so-called Israelis today are called that as nationals, but God’s people of the O.T. are by promise still Israelites. The reference to "Jews" today is a religious name and are called that because it was mostly the tribe of Judah that returned to recover the land after exile, but actually most Israelites do not know which tribe they are from. They are a scattered people in the world, and will not be gathered again as a nation by God until the Lord comes to reign after the Tribulation Period, as shown in Bible prophecy. Israelites were overthrown and taken captive by the judgment of God in about 588 BC for their rebellion over many years. Some were allowed to return under the provision of Cyrus, King of Persia – circa 520 BC, and later the King Artaxeres in 446 BC. This people were later conquered by Rome about 63 BC just prior to the time of Jesus Christ, and later driven out by the Romans in about 137 AD after being occupied by them for about 75 years, though some poor Israelites remained along with various Arab tribes wandering through the land, but never settling and forming a State. The history thereafter in brief shows Great Britain governing the land under the control of the League of Nations following World War I, then dividing the land to accommodate various religious groups coming in 1922. After Israel began returning to their homeland in great numbers in the 1930’s they eventually formed a nation in 1948. One can study the historical account further from the official records. The world in general today is divided, with most people outside of real Christianity opposing Israel and calling for them to give in to Moslem demands for ownership of part of Israel’s land. That is unique in the world, for it does not happen in any other country. Israel established a nation and developed the land, and now the various Arab groups that continue coming into the land today want to own it. Israel is still God's earthly people by covenant, and that is why we as Christians must honor that and aid Israel as much as we can. Israel and the Church are both people of God. We may not approve of their governmental ways, and we are sad that they reject their Messiah --the Lord Jesus Christ, but that is between them and God (and they have and will suffer much for it). Today they must come to God the same as Gentiles through Jesus Christ --God's beloved Son and their only blood sacrifice. Only then will the current generation find blessing and hope, and that for eternity. It is important to see in the Bible that Israel as a people will rule over the earth by God's leading when the new earth is established and they repent (note Zech. 13:6); and today their religion has been done away at the cross. The church --the bride of Christ, is a heavenly people, and they are not destined to live on the earth, but in Heaven. One needs to understand this difference between the Church and Israel. -RLD oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Nebula spoke some good advice ---I am a retired family counselor. It is hard to be humble, but if you confessed you are sorry to have been so harsh and offensive, even though you felt you were speaking rightly, it might soften her heart. Maybe she would also admit to some failure. If you both cannot confess failure and sorrow and show affection, then you will probably need to seek a Christian counselor. I don't recommend you "let bygones be bygones", for this will cause a distrust between you, and this problem will likely surface again. - Seriousseeker

Good advice, Nebula. Some modern church groups are seeking members by various worldly schemes, and these often become "mega-churches". They say: we are not interested in Bible study, but "disciplining" (gaining members). I know a dear Christian who came out of a mega-church for that very reason. He said of over 1,000 members, he could count on one hand the number of Bibles seen in the vast assembly. They had evolved from a normal church group to this huge building by offering all kinds of entertainment and special social groups such as a motorcycle club, a tennis club, hiker's club, etc. They now preach a social doctrine and encourage people to just live the Christian life. - Seriousseeker

I surely don't know what the issue here is, but as to the term: "sanctified transgression", I am supposing she meant that one who is sanctified (set apart for God) should not violate that high calling and lie about something. That is a transgresssion of the blessing of God. - Seriousseeker

Sian, you need not worry about losing the Holy Spirit, for a true believer in Christ is "sealed" and indwelt by the Spirit, and also "born again". We thus cannot become unborn, right? - Seriousseeker

A proper Bible verse may be the answer (meaning one that does not blame or condemn). Of course, one might say the Christians are defacing walls by such. - Seriousseeker