Tithe???

[LuftWaffle]

So as far as things stand (and I am a very teachable fellow) I whole-hearted endorse what Luftwaffle has proposed, (and I hope I haven't misrepresented you bro)...as I have found the current strands on tithes and offerings wholly inadequate, and biblically unsound...and in many respects slightly dishonest.

Hi Botz,

No you haven't misrepresented me at all. Thank you for summarising so eloquently what I've been trying to bring across. I appreciate it greatly.

God bless.

[LuftWaffle]

Dave,

Off-topic question: What is the Men's lounge about?

Blessings

LW

[j102]

I vehemently disagree with our new brother here. He is trying to lay the conviction of his own heart upon others.

Indeed, I am convinced in my heart, but having a conviction in itself isn't wrong, is it? Do you not have convictions in your own heart too?

Convictions are only wrong if they contradict scripture, so lets look at what the Bible says regarding tithing and whether what is taught nowadays is inline with scripture and most importantly, lets stop changing the definition of tithing to mean things it does not.

I agree that our lives should be a living sacrifice devoted to God, but that's not a tithe and nowhere in scripture is it defined as a tithe.

Likewise charitable giving isn't a tithe nor is it defined as such in scripture.

Ananias and Saffira weren't killed for not tithing, tithing has nothing do to with what happened to them, their offense was lying to the Holy Spirit. In fact Peter says that their possessions were theirs to keep, so non-payment isn't the issue.

Act 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

None of the above attempts to substantiate modern tithing actually references modern tithing.

I fully agree that all things we own belong to God, but you haven't answered my question. Who authorised churches to be the custodians of what Christians give back to God? Who declared that churches should get the first 10% of gentile Christians monthly salaries? This is what is being taught, is it unreasonable to ask where the scriptural authority for this teaching comes from? Does that make me wordly, stingy, greedy, disobedient or unfaithful? Does that mean I have some dark agenda that I want to force onto others?

Grace to you,

So do you generally advise that the person that Tithes ten percent not do that despite the conviction of their heart because you see no cause for it? Does it bother you that folks do this as a matter of worship? Does it rub you the wrong way that Churches teach this as a way to support the local Church and the Pastor assigned to it?

Do you realize that something like only ten percent of any given local Church actually really tithes, let alone gives anything at all? How should the local Church be supported in your summation?

I want to know how much you believe that I should personally give and how I should give it.

peace,

Dave

through out church history the church prospered and grew the most when it was under great persecution and poverty. that goes to show that god is in control of things, after all he owns the cattle on a thousand hills. but still we should give $$$ to help the church, but GIVE from the heart want you want to give for god loves a cheerful GIVER. we shouldn't give or tithe out of a "i have to" mentality but a want to mentality. when it comes to preaching about about how you NEED to give tithes all it is is a very subtle form of spiritual manipulation /abuse.

[enoob57]

Dear Steven, I'm still new here so it's with respect and humily that I appeal to you to address the topic and abandon the idea that tithing is interchangeable with devotion or giving.

The verses above as well as the idea that Christians should be generous and not materialistic I agree with. That is not the contention here.

When God took Law and condemned all of His creation... the children of God were made ready for this

Ezek 11:19-21

19 Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God. 21 But as for those whose hearts follow the desire for their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their deeds on their own heads," says the Lord God.

NKJV

Can you tell me the statues He speaks of?

I'd be willing to bet that your very church makes a distinction between tithes and offerings, because the common way that it is taught is that tithes (a minimum of 10%) must go to the church, thereafter one can give to the needy. Right there a distinction is made.

The only hope I have sir is to grow into the likeness of my Lord... what others do and say I cannot give account for! However what I do and say that I will give account for and this one truth is I do not want to be found spending a great deal of time and thought to the thing which God plans to completely burn up... I believe He would have me keep the eternal things in focus for these are the valuables of God and they are Heart taught Spiritual realities that help me to gain personal closeness to Him! I wish to be consumed by His person in the communion of remembrance till He come...

Let me also appeal to you to look at the opening post of this thread.

anitarose expressed her shock at the late J.Vernon McGee for teaching that tithing is no longer required.

Now if tithing is interchangeable with giving, then we must assume that J. Vernon McGee is teaching that the church isn't required to give to the needy. Is anitarose expressing her shock that this is the case? Not at all. Giving is not what we're talking about.

Likewise if tithing is interchangeable with the idea that all belongs to God then is J. Vernon McGee really contending that it isn't the case that all things belong to God? Again I doubt that is the case.

Tithing is a rule that is very specific when it is applied, but very vague when it is defended.

What do I mean by that?

When it is taught from the pulpit it is said that a minimum of 10% of one's salary must be paid to the local church, whether your rich or poor, own land or not, Jew or gentile and those who don't are implied as being robbers of God or that they lack faith or devotion. These are very specific instructions and accusations, wouldn't you say?

God has been very specific to us and has taught us in the New Heart this reality

1 John 2:15-17

15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world

[LuftWaffle]

Hi Steven,

When God took Law and condemned all of His creation... the children of God were made ready for this

Ezek 11:19-21

19 Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God. 21 But as for those whose hearts follow the desire for their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their deeds on their own heads," says the Lord God.

NKJV

Can you tell me the statues He speaks of?

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking me, here though I don't believe that gentile Christians should be keeping the ~630 Laws and statutes of the old testament. The bible teaches that the entire Law hinges upon loving God with all one's heart, mind and soul and loving your neighbour as yourself. That is the Christian law and when a man comes to God and is regenerated, then this is what is written upon the heart.

The problem nowadays is that the law written on people's hearts urge people to aid missionaries, but the church demands her 10% first. People want to feed their families, but the church want's her 10% first. People are called to assist the needy, but they can only do so once the church got her piece of the pie.

Thankfully not all churches are like this, but I see more and more.

No wonder Sam Pascoe wrote, "Christianity started out in Palestine as a fellowship; it moved to Greece and became a philosophy; it moved to Italy and became an institution; it moved to Europe and became a culture; it came to America and became an enterprise"

If you believe we should be keeping the Old Testament law rigidly, then as I said before tithing as defined in the law is violated by the modern tithing teaching. Also how do we choose which laws to keep and which to discard? The very churches teaching tithing still sell books, CD's and DVD on the sabbath. People still wear clothing made of mixed fabric: Deu 22:11 Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together.

So, let me ask you the same question: Which statutes are we to keep?

The only hope I have sir is to grow into the likeness of my Lord... what others do and say I cannot give account for! However what I do and say that I will give account for and this one truth is I do not want to be found spending a great deal of time and thought to the thing which God plans to completely burn up... I believe He would have me keep the eternal things in focus for these are the valuables of God and they are Heart taught Spiritual realities that help me to gain personal closeness to Him! I wish to be consumed by His person in the communion of remembrance till He come...

You needn't call me 'sir' Steven. I'm just some guy. Why is it that tithers, when they cannot answer questions they start telling you what great Christians they are? Is this not precisely what you're doing now? Suddenly you've put on this, "I'm just a humble servant of the Lord and I just want to please the Lord" hat.

Friend, why play these games? Why the sudden shift in your approach to this topic? Which is the real Steven, the one whom I reasoned with in earlier posts, or the new servile Steven who calls me 'sir'. Why the sudden shift in the style of your posts? You may think that I'm a hard man, and perhaps you're be right, but I see this all the time.

Friend, please I beg you, why won't you just answer simple questions. Are asking direct questions unreasonable? Have I not been clear in my posts? Or is there a small chance that could it perhaps be ego, dear friend? You've invested so much into a man made law and you will not accept that you've been tricked. You cannot walk away from the topic because that will be seen as defeat, but you have no answers. God never gave the gentile church the authority to take tithes, did He? It's not in scripture, but you've been keeping this Law, and you feel justified...proud of yourself that you've done good, that you're a good servant. You know you're not perfect, but atleast tithing makes you better than some. You've shown God that you're devoted and now you've climbed a notch. That's the pitfall of justification by law isn't it? Pride.

I could be very wrong and most likely you'll say that I am, so no need to answer me regarding this. I'm just speculating based on what I know about human nature.

Either way, I have mentioned that your church probably distinguishes between tithes and offerings, can you confirm this?

Let me sketch what I see happening regarding tithing this way.

Suppose I walk down the street. I see a man in a suit and I grab him, drag him into an alley and tell him that if he doesn't give me his mobile phone, his wallet and his watch I'm going to kill him...

He turned to me in fear and asks, "Why are you doing this?"

And I respond, "The bible teaches us that we shouldn't love worldly things. That all things belong to God and that we should give it to God. I'll also tell him that I need the money to continue feeding my family."

What would you say if you were in that position?

Would you ask me where the Bible gave me the authority to demand things from people in the name of God?

Would you argue that although feeding my family is a good end, my means of acquiring help are wrong?

Would you argue that when Jesus said we should love worldy things doesn't mean that we should simply hand it over when anybody deems it right to simply take it in the Name of God?

Here's what the church does. They say give to God because all things belong to Him. But then they stick out their hand to take it. Where did God authorise the church to take money on God's behalf?

If somebody like me, ask questions we are told that the New Testament teaches giving, something I agree with, but where does the Bible say that we must give a minimum to the church? Christian generosity cannot be used to justify anybody or any entity simply taking from people and calling it "an act of worship". It's exactly the same as robbing people because the Bible says people should be generous and not cling to worldly things.

Thirdly the ends do not justify the means. Churches cannot invent a law and manipulate and coerce because, "How else will the church survive?"

The only thing a person needs to do nowadays to get your hands on ten percent of Christians often hard earned money, is to start a church. Tell me that I'm wrong! Is there any other criteria? No. Is there any biblical justification? No!

So think about this, I come to your house and I demand that you pay me tithes of 10% of your salary before your pay any expenses, because I'm spreading the word of God on the internet.

What would you say?

If you say, "No Luft, you're not a registered church" then I'd say to you, "Where does the Bible say registered churches should get ten percent? What makes me different from the Pastor?"

If you say, "What authority do you have to demand this of me" then I'll say, "The bible says you must be generous... So give it up."

If you say, "Yeah but churches do the work of God" then I'll say, "So do I. I'm going to use your money to expand my little business."

If you say, "What about my family, I can't afford to just give you money every month", then I'll say, "You have so little faith. Does God not say that you should test him that he'll bless you? And if He blesses you then I'll also get more money from you. If he doesn't bless you and you end up broke, then you probably didn't have enough faith...naughty Steven!"

If you say, "What if I refuse to pay you?", then I'll say, "Well then you're robbing God. Then you're showing that you're a greedy materialist who has no faith and aren't really very devoted to God."

If you say, "You have no right to do this", then I'll say, "Yes I have, the Bible says all things belong to God anyway, so give it up."

Then you say, "YEAH, BUT YOU'RE NOT GOD...You....You're a thief. An extortionist!"

I think you get the picture. Please answer me, why is the pastor justified in doing this, but another individual isn't? What is the piece of information that I'm unaware of that makes the one right and the other wrong? Please, if I am to tithe I want to know, lest I spend the rest of my life fighting against something that I shouldn't be.

Edited January 15, 2011 by LuftWaffle

[Botz]

No wonder Sam Pascoe wrote, "Christianity started out in Palestine as a fellowship; it moved to Greece and became a philosophy; it moved to Italy and became an institution; it moved to Europe and became a culture; it came to America and became an enterprise"

Good post on the tithing side Luft...Sam Pascoe needs to gen up on his biblical history though, as Christianity, or belief in Jesus/Yeshua as Messiah started out in Israel....using the word Palestine is just part of the revisionism that has crept unawares into Church thinking down through the years....Some of it in ignorance, but much of it deliberate, especially in these days.

No need to reply, this is just an aside.

[JCISGD]

hi Luft, your user name betrays you, and you do seem to "waffle" on with a seemingly preconcieved idea that churches and pastors should be content with whatever scraps are thrown their way.

While its true some are greedy "filthy money" lovers, the church is a God ordained vehicle to spread the gospel and gathering of the believers on the Lords Day.

Its true also no one has to give 10%, but its not true that the Holy Spirit causes disorder by abolishing the need to support pastors and the costs of bulidings in the name of faith.

The rule of thumb is that if we are part of a gathering we should pull our weight and "owe no man anything". Also he who does not look after his own family (which includes the church he attends) is "worse than an infidel."

We may give to individuals and causes, but we are first obligated to give consistant regular support to any minister we regulary recieve from. Would you accept any less from your work place? why then do you make issue of tithing to support the work of God, and if its not Gods work then why give anything?

God bless.

[LuftWaffle]

hi Luft, your user name betrays you, and you do seem to "waffle" on with a seemingly preconcieved idea that churches and pastors should be content with whatever scraps are thrown their way.

"Waffle"...I like that...very clever

While its true some are greedy "filthy money" lovers, the church is a God ordained vehicle to spread the gospel and gathering of the believers on the Lords Day.

I agree. Did I give the impression that I don't believe the church is a God ordained vehicle to spread the gospel? But being the vehicle for spreading the gospel surely doesn't give the church the authority to take tithes on God's behalf?

Its true also no one has to give 10%, but its not true that the Holy Spirit causes disorder by abolishing the need to support pastors and the costs of bulidings in the name of faith.

Wow, I don't recall saying that the Holy spirit abolishes the need to support pastors. What I wrote in regard to giving is:

"I generally advise that Christians follow the lead of the Holy Spirit and if the Holy spirit says, "The pastor needs your help" then you give all you can...."

- Post #64

The rule of thumb is that if we are part of a gathering we should pull our weight and "owe no man anything". Also he who does not look after his own family (which includes the church he attends) is "worse than an infidel."

I wonder, whether teaching manmade laws to cover the running expenses of a modern megachurch is what the author had in mind when he wrote, "A man who doesn't look after his family is worse than an unbeliever"

This discussion as far as I understand is supposed to be about the doctrine of modern tithing and it's validity, not about whether it's effective in keeping churches open. I have no doubt that tithing is effective in making churches wealthy, the wealthiest churches in the world afterall, are also the ones that place the most emphasis on tithing.

We may give to individuals and causes, but we are first obligated to give consistant regular support to any minister we regulary recieve from.

Scripture please?

Would you accept any less from your work place? why then do you make issue of tithing to support the work of God, and if its not Gods work then why give anything?

Friend, honestly have you read what I posted at all? I don't have an issue with supporting God's work, neither do I have a problem with pastors earning a living. What I do have an issue with is taking an old testament law, and modifying it entirely so that the only similarity with the original is the name 'tithing' and then teaching it as a God given law and enforcing this new law using scripture references to the original meaning coupled with threats about robbing God, appeals to emotion, anecdotal evidence and promises of financial blessings.

If a church needs money, why not just ask for it? Why play tricks? If a church struggles and asks for help and the congregation is too self-centred and stingy to assist, then perhaps the pastor hasn't been preaching the gospel enough, not so?

This is really what I think it boils down to: pastors nowadays don't really trust their congregations, which in turn reflects on their trust for God's providence, why else would they do this?

Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Mat 10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

Mat 10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

God bless

Edited January 15, 2011 by LuftWaffle

[LuftWaffle]

I'd really like it if we can get back to the key topic of this thread which is the validity of the doctrine of modern tithing. Thus far many strawman arguments and caricatures have been constructed regarding the opposition so for the sake of clarity I'd like to reaffirm the my position.

Tithing as taught today can be refuted in two ways:

a) Christians under the new covenant aren't under the law.

b) Tithing as it is taught today isn't even in the Bible at all.

I have focussed primarily on the second approach. One need only to make a comparison between what is taught in churches today, with how God defined tithing in Deut 14 to see that apart from the name, these are two entirely seperate things, yet when tithing is taught, verses referencing the biblical tithe is used to support the modern version. This is a classic fallacy of equivocation which makes it an unreasonable and wrong thing to do. Also, tithing isn't interchangeable with giving: The bible distinguishes between gifts and tithes, even pastors who preach tithing, make the distinction, so calling tithing 'giving' and then offering verses about giving or charity aren't valid responses.

What I'd like to know is where God commanded modern tithing or where the church got the authority to modify biblical tithing into what is being taught nowadays.

Further (and by the way, I think it's sad that I have to do this) as a catch-all for future attempts at misrepresenting the arguments I would like to declare the following and will from now on refer back to these as declaration A through H to prevent further detraction:

A) I'm not arguing against giving in general

B) I'm not arguing against people worshipping God

C) I'm not arguing against pastors earning an honest living

D) I'm not arguing against churches or pastors or christian institutions in general

E) I'm not arguing against spreading the gospel

F) I'm not arguing against people supporting or assisting the church in general

G) I'm not arguing against pastors or churches being supported or assisted by their congregations as long as they're honest about it.

H) I'm not arguing against the scriptural notion that God owns all of creation and that all is His

This is a great and important topic and I'm greatful for everybody's contributions and on the whole, an excellent thread.

Edited January 15, 2011 by LuftWaffle

[Botz]

I have a virtually identical understanding to what Luft has written...and welcome engaging challenges and teaching on the subject that do not try and sound off what people have been taught parrot fashion, but actually explain biblically why the need to promote the doctrine of Tithes and Offerings is adequately demonstrated under the New Covenant teachings.

On top of this I would also like to add, and re-emphasize, why amongst much of the teaching on Tithes and Offerings is it promoted that we should expect a financial return, and treat our giving like an investment for the here and now, and not rather as placing a deposit in our Heavenly Bank, and collecting our savings in due course?

I would also echo AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN...that this is not trying to subvert the need for supporting ministry, or chipping away at time honoured doctrine that has worked fine until now...it is just asking for an honest, unblinkered and more biblically-balanced approach that is not afraid to slough off misleading concepts in light of a better understanding.

Please, please burn any straw-men rather than post them here....thanks.