Guest Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Thanks for your post bro....I will go and read what you have written over the next couple of days. In Messiah. Botz You are quite welcome. I am a dry and wordy writer, I won't feel bad if you cannot make it through, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuftWaffle Posted January 20, 2011 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 820 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 7 Joined: 01/09/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 20, 2011 Thanks for your post bro....I will go and read what you have written over the next couple of days. In Messiah. Botz You are quite welcome. I am a dry and wordy writer, I won't feel bad if you cannot make it through, lol. I'm also busy reading through it. Thank for for taking the trouble to put together such a thorough study of the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botz Posted January 20, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,492 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 191 Days Won: 18 Joined: 03/29/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted January 20, 2011 Thanks for your post bro....I will go and read what you have written over the next couple of days. In Messiah. Botz You are quite welcome. I am a dry and wordy writer, I won't feel bad if you cannot make it through, lol. Made it through the first part (drank plenty of water) and am on to the last section....excellent bro, should be compulsive reading...would you mind if I printed a couple of copies to use at house-group and to show to a pastor friend of mine? Have just finished it, and I don't think there is anything you have written that I struggle with...it was refreshing to see Scripture appropriately applied, in context, and to understand the heart of the message very clearly. I will be reading over it several times more, along with several other studies on the same subject. We have reached a place in these days where there is a great deal of mis-understanding concerning the requirements of the Believer towards money and the role of finance, and unfortunately there are some teachings that fly off into subjective theory and the testimonies of selected experiences, using the Bible in a really shoddy manner and ensnaring those that trust these teachings without checking them out for themselves. Thanks again for the study....if you ever expand it, please let me know if you remember. In Him. Botz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted January 23, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Hi, Boy, do I have a hot-button topic for today.....I was attempting to make a dent in my living area this afternoon, and I had the radio on...I happened to catch the late J. Vernon McGee, who I have listened to it seems like forever. He was teaching out of Malachi, and boy, he hit a major nerve today. He started teaching on Malachi 3, which talks about the tithe and the storehouse...and oh my heavens I almost came off the floor. He actually taught that tithing WASN'T FOR THE CHURCH TODAY. Of course, he taught the usual, that we are "not under the law but under grace" but he also said that tithing was under the law and that the CHURCH DIDN'T HAVE TO TITHE, NOR STORE IN THE STOREHOUSE. Now I love Dr McGee, and I thank God for his ministry, but for me this teaching was just plain wrong. I'm thinking to myself, how irresponsible could this man be, and did he learn anything from Y'shua after he went home??? Yikes!!! I want to hear what y'all have to say....I know I sat there and listened with my jaw on the floor.... a. McGee is wrong. He had been influenced by someone. As God has made a distinct set of promises concerning the tithe, and God's promises are never defunct, then if we tithe to Him, He will honour them...and He does! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizzdy Posted January 23, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 173 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,911 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 10 Joined: 03/21/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted January 23, 2011 Hi, Boy, do I have a hot-button topic for today.....I was attempting to make a dent in my living area this afternoon, and I had the radio on...I happened to catch the late J. Vernon McGee, who I have listened to it seems like forever. He was teaching out of Malachi, and boy, he hit a major nerve today. He started teaching on Malachi 3, which talks about the tithe and the storehouse...and oh my heavens I almost came off the floor. He actually taught that tithing WASN'T FOR THE CHURCH TODAY. Of course, he taught the usual, that we are "not under the law but under grace" but he also said that tithing was under the law and that the CHURCH DIDN'T HAVE TO TITHE, NOR STORE IN THE STOREHOUSE. Now I love Dr McGee, and I thank God for his ministry, but for me this teaching was just plain wrong. I'm thinking to myself, how irresponsible could this man be, and did he learn anything from Y'shua after he went home??? Yikes!!! I want to hear what y'all have to say....I know I sat there and listened with my jaw on the floor.... a. McGee is wrong. He had been influenced by someone. As God has made a distinct set of promises concerning the tithe, and God's promises are never defunct, then if we tithe to Him, He will honour them...and He does! Blessing and curses come from either obeying or disobeying His laws. So if we are commanded to tithe, which is part of that 'old testament' laws that most say are done away with, so if we are to obey the tithing commands then why not the rest? Personally I have never met anyone who tithes according to Gods laws, theres no temple, theres no real community that we see for the reasons of tithing as we see in scriptures. God set up the tithing system through Moses because of the priesthood and the sacrificial system, and though we find Abraham giving a tithe to Melcheizedak, there was no clear cut direct command to do so until Moses. So if the law came through Moses and as so many believe that the commandments, the Torah has been done away with, why still tithe? There is no clear cut direction or command in the NT for tithing so by your own admission we are blessed by following this one command why do we not need to follow the others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted January 24, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted January 24, 2011 J. Vernon is right. The tithe is not a Christian doctrine, though it is the dogma of some. If your conscience requires you to tithe, then by all means do so. I won't pontificate beyond that here, but for the truly interested, I prepared a study which examines every possible passage I can find in the Bible on the topic. You might not agree with my conclusions, God bless you, but you will find every verse you will need I think, to form your own conclusion. That is what you should do anyway, Don't take my word for it, don't take your pastor's word for it, don't take anyone's word for it but God's. http://www.omegazine.com/biblestudy/tithe_1.html#start I just got through this, too. Thank-you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Hi, Boy, do I have a hot-button topic for today.....I was attempting to make a dent in my living area this afternoon, and I had the radio on...I happened to catch the late J. Vernon McGee, who I have listened to it seems like forever. He was teaching out of Malachi, and boy, he hit a major nerve today. He started teaching on Malachi 3, which talks about the tithe and the storehouse...and oh my heavens I almost came off the floor. He actually taught that tithing WASN'T FOR THE CHURCH TODAY. Of course, he taught the usual, that we are "not under the law but under grace" but he also said that tithing was under the law and that the CHURCH DIDN'T HAVE TO TITHE, NOR STORE IN THE STOREHOUSE. Now I love Dr McGee, and I thank God for his ministry, but for me this teaching was just plain wrong. I'm thinking to myself, how irresponsible could this man be, and did he learn anything from Y'shua after he went home??? Yikes!!! I want to hear what y'all have to say....I know I sat there and listened with my jaw on the floor.... a. McGee is wrong. He had been influenced by someone. As God has made a distinct set of promises concerning the tithe, and God's promises are never defunct, then if we tithe to Him, He will honour them...and He does! Blessing and curses come from either obeying or disobeying His laws. So if we are commanded to tithe, which is part of that 'old testament' laws that most say are done away with, so if we are to obey the tithing commands then why not the rest? Personally I have never met anyone who tithes according to Gods laws, theres no temple, theres no real community that we see for the reasons of tithing as we see in scriptures. God set up the tithing system through Moses because of the priesthood and the sacrificial system, and though we find Abraham giving a tithe to Melcheizedak, there was no clear cut direct command to do so until Moses. So if the law came through Moses and as so many believe that the commandments, the Torah has been done away with, why still tithe? There is no clear cut direction or command in the NT for tithing so by your own admission we are blessed by following this one command why do we not need to follow the others? We don't all believe that. I know I don't. I believe that the laws regarding the office of the Levitical Priesthood were only designed to continue till the cross, so that is why we don't follow them. The laws regarding Israel's separation from the heathen nations around them, like circumcision, no longer apply. The penalties were only there because Israel's laws were based on the Law of Moses, and they were never intended for vigilaties, but for govenmental officials to carry out, so until America becomes a theocracy, they don't apply. I do however believe the moral laws continue. If they didn't, a brother would be free to marry his sister, as that law forbidding incest in marriage was an OT law. This idea the moral laws of God were done away with is wrong. If you are walking in the Spirit, you are not under the law because the Spirit will lead you to live a righteous lifestyle, but if you are walking in the flesh, the law remains to act as your schoolmaster. The question here is where does tithing fit in? I think the principle of God blessing you if you tithe continues. At the same time, the storehouse spoken of in Malachi was the temple. We have to decide if that same law carried over to the Christian Church? I don't think this can be proven one way or the other. Our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit today, so one could suggest that as an individual, we are free to make distribution any way we see fit, rather than having to give 100 percent of our tithes to one congregation. Ministers would argue against that as they need money to run the local church, but I don't see how they can prove God requires all giving to go to one church? To do so, you would have to show the local church took the place of the temple. I think tithing is a good thing, and if the church did give 10 percent, imagine what we could do? If we were to give 10 percent and use some for the work of spreading the gospel, and some to help the poor, this world would be a better place for it. Simply giving to line the pocket of one person is not the way to go, but keep in mind that scripture states that the laborer is worthy of his hire. I would suggest everyone look at all the scriptures on this subject, and seek God to see what he would have you to do? In Malachi, it says to prove God and see if he doesn't open up the windows of heaven in pouring you out a blessing? Do as the Spirit leads you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuftWaffle Posted January 25, 2011 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 820 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 7 Joined: 01/09/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) We don't all believe that. I know I don't. I believe that the laws regarding the office of the Levitical Priesthood were only designed to continue till the cross, so that is why we don't follow them. The laws regarding Israel's separation from the heathen nations around them, like circumcision, no longer apply. The penalties were only there because Israel's laws were based on the Law of Moses, and they were never intended for vigilaties, but for govenmental officials to carry out, so until America becomes a theocracy, they don't apply. I do however believe the moral laws continue. If they didn't, a brother would be free to marry his sister, as that law forbidding incest in marriage was an OT law. This idea the moral laws of God were done away with is wrong. If you are walking in the Spirit, you are not under the law because the Spirit will lead you to live a righteous lifestyle, but if you are walking in the flesh, the law remains to act as your schoolmaster. The question here is where does tithing fit in? I think the principle of God blessing you if you tithe continues. At the same time, the storehouse spoken of in Malachi was the temple. We have to decide if that same law carried over to the Christian Church? I don't think this can be proven one way or the other. Our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit today, so one could suggest that as an individual, we are free to make distribution any way we see fit, rather than having to give 100 percent of our tithes to one congregation. Ministers would argue against that as they need money to run the local church, but I don't see how they can prove God requires all giving to go to one church? To do so, you would have to show the local church took the place of the temple. I think tithing is a good thing, and if the church did give 10 percent, imagine what we could do? If we were to give 10 percent and use some for the work of spreading the gospel, and some to help the poor, this world would be a better place for it. Simply giving to line the pocket of one person is not the way to go, but keep in mind that scripture states that the laborer is worthy of his hire. I would suggest everyone look at all the scriptures on this subject, and seek God to see what he would have you to do? In Malachi, it says to prove God and see if he doesn't open up the windows of heaven in pouring you out a blessing? Do as the Spirit leads you. Hi Butero, What you wrote is a good, honest, mature and Christian approach to the issue and I agree with what you said. Thanks. Edited January 25, 2011 by LuftWaffle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizzdy Posted January 25, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 173 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,911 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 10 Joined: 03/21/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted January 25, 2011 Blessing and curses come from either obeying or disobeying His laws. So if we are commanded to tithe, which is part of that 'old testament' laws that most say are done away with, so if we are to obey the tithing commands then why not the rest? Personally I have never met anyone who tithes according to Gods laws, theres no temple, theres no real community that we see for the reasons of tithing as we see in scriptures. God set up the tithing system through Moses because of the priesthood and the sacrificial system, and though we find Abraham giving a tithe to Melcheizedak, there was no clear cut direct command to do so until Moses. So if the law came through Moses and as so many believe that the commandments, the Torah has been done away with, why still tithe? There is no clear cut direction or command in the NT for tithing so by your own admission we are blessed by following this one command why do we not need to follow the others? We don't all believe that. I know I don't. I believe that the laws regarding the office of the Levitical Priesthood were only designed to continue till the cross, so that is why we don't follow them. The laws regarding Israel's separation from the heathen nations around them, like circumcision, no longer apply. The penalties were only there because Israel's laws were based on the Law of Moses, and they were never intended for vigilaties, but for govenmental officials to carry out, so until America becomes a theocracy, they don't apply. I do however believe the moral laws continue. If they didn't, a brother would be free to marry his sister, as that law forbidding incest in marriage was an OT law. This idea the moral laws of God were done away with is wrong. If you are walking in the Spirit, you are not under the law because the Spirit will lead you to live a righteous lifestyle, but if you are walking in the flesh, the law remains to act as your schoolmaster. We are all at different stages of our walk with Him so not everyone sees things the same ways, a good thing I think as it helps us to take things and work them out which is what Worthy and other places are for. I have not ever been convinced that God's instructions for a righteous and healthy way of living was ever done away with, including the Sabbath and His feasts which God Himself said were everlasting. I also think so much of our opinions and doctrines are understood through the lenses of who we think Israel is and who we think the chuch is God is not divided in regard to His own people and never made a covenant with just gentiles and as we see the new covenant is not made with gentiles but with Israel and Judah no mention ever of a separate covenant for gentiles or a gentile church. I see posting on woman wearing pants but when God instructed Aaron and the others to make the priests clothes their 'trousers' were to cover their thighs. So how can we argue about that especially in light that we are to walk in the Spirit as He leads and not as we think we are being led. By saying one set of laws are done away with but we can use some of the laws as we see fit kinda seems wrong don't you think. I do agree we don't have a Levitical priesthood yet we are to be priests before God and man daily so the we should act that way. The question here is where does tithing fit in? I think the principle of God blessing you if you tithe continues. At the same time, the storehouse spoken of in Malachi was the temple. We have to decide if that same law carried over to the Christian Church? I don't think this can be proven one way or the other. Our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit today, so one could suggest that as an individual, we are free to make distribution any way we see fit, rather than having to give 100 percent of our tithes to one congregation. Ministers would argue against that as they need money to run the local church, but I don't see how they can prove God requires all giving to go to one church? To do so, you would have to show the local church took the place of the temple. The curses in Malachi also come from the heart attitude towards God, those people he is talking about our Gods own who complained and carried on just about everything I imagine, much like if one has 10 dollars and they worked hard for it but God says that person much give over a tithe the person does because they 'have to' and their hearts are hardening under their own hearts desires and not the desire to serve Him. Malachi is about Gods chosen Israel and Judah, their curses and blessing when they obey Him that at the end of this age He will bring them back together again. If there was a central store house or several across the world that all could tithe to and food, clothing and the life could be given out wow what a service for God and for His children! Sadly I cannot see it happening too many different denoms would want to put their hands in it and eventually it would all fall apart at least thats how I see it all playing out. I personally believe we are to give as we can not all can give 10% of their income maybe they can only give say 50$ a month but they also serve in the food bank or feel called to prayer for others, this person is giving the only way they know how or can. I think supporting ones pastor or teacher is important I think its important to uphold the works that ones church does and thats part of it all the tithes were to go to supporting the work of God and not just keeping the priests fed. If ones pastor is telling anyone to give to the church till it hurts or any number of things like that and all ones tithes is going just for that church I would question it myself since the tithes were to support all the congregation of God. We see God's instructions differently I see them as eternal and everylasting just like gravity which if you think about is one of Gods laws. Moses never made a law of His own, the Jewish brethren don't own Gods instructions either, how do we live without instructions? If I told my son growing up he had to love everyone like himself he would have been in serious trouble, so my instructions to him were specific and I allowed him to learn to 'walk' in them the best to his ability which I set by example. That is exactly what Yeshua, God, did when He took on human form He showed us how to walk in His instructions, He followed and walked in those so called 'Law of Moses' He became our perfect example on how to serve and please the Father and if it was good enough for Him to give us His instructions and then come walk in them Himself I think I want to emmulate Him, pattern my life on what He did and not what the theologians and the rest have decided after the facts. Even though we see His instructions differently we are still brothers and sisters in the Messiah and He will teach us through the Spirit each day we ask for the truth of His words eventually we either accept what He says or we are told 'I never knew you' only Yeshua decides who is His chosen. shalom, Mizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Thanks for your post bro....I will go and read what you have written over the next couple of days. In Messiah. Botz You are quite welcome. I am a dry and wordy writer, I won't feel bad if you cannot make it through, lol. Made it through the first part (drank plenty of water) and am on to the last section....excellent bro, should be compulsive reading...would you mind if I printed a couple of copies to use at house-group and to show to a pastor friend of mine? Have just finished it, and I don't think there is anything you have written that I struggle with...it was refreshing to see Scripture appropriately applied, in context, and to understand the heart of the message very clearly. I will be reading over it several times more, along with several other studies on the same subject. We have reached a place in these days where there is a great deal of mis-understanding concerning the requirements of the Believer towards money and the role of finance, and unfortunately there are some teachings that fly off into subjective theory and the testimonies of selected experiences, using the Bible in a really shoddy manner and ensnaring those that trust these teachings without checking them out for themselves. Thanks again for the study....if you ever expand it, please let me know if you remember. In Him. Botz You are welcome Botz. Free free to show it to whoever you wish. It is on a public forum for a reason. All I ask is that people do not attribute anything to me, that I did not say. I try hard to stick to the scriptures, and point out areas where I am offering opinion or conjecture. I do not expect my writings to be free of controversy, I tend to gravitate toward controversial topics. I am also open to criticism and disagreement, feel free to offer any as you see fit. If something occurs to me or I become aware of something that adds to the topic, I will try to remember to let you know. Thanks for taking the time to read it. May the Lord bless you as you seek His ways. In His service, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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