UncleAbee Posted February 16, 2011 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 109 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 1 Joined: 07/08/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted February 16, 2011 Uncle Abee, I am not disagreeing with the principals you speak. What is rubbing against my grain is the attitude of judgment placed against these people. When I spoke of the need to know church history, it is because we need to know how we got to where we are, and why we got to what we are. And as it is said, those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. None of the Reformers had the intention of starting a new denomination. They actually were trying to get back into Biblical Christianity. But the things of which you speak bypassed their radar. The next reformer that came along caught some things that the previous one had missed. The reformer after him caught things the two before had missed. And so on and so forth. I would venture to say that you are able to know so much about what the church should be only because those before you had cleared the paths for you to search and follow. Becoming a denomination did not occur over night. Often it was not established until after the reformer/founder had died and those now in leadership chose to establish their own creeds rather than trust to hear the Holy Spirit directing their coarse. If you pride yourself in knowing what the Church should be (OK, first we have to call it "Assembly" rather than "Church" if we want to get back to Biblical truth), beware lest you fall. Who is to say that your fellowship of believers won't fall into the same pattern as those who have gone before? Consider the Methodists. If you research what the Wesleys were like, what their meetings were like, what their original gatherings were like (before they were congregated into the "Methodist" label), you would see an entirely different fellowship than what they are today. You should look into it. I agree with most of what you say. The idea of denominations did not start overnight. It evolved. Gal 5:9 says - "A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough." Things "creep" into the church and then become standard doctrine over time. I agree. We do know better. The early ones did pave the way. Knowing better we should know to reject the idea of division in the church and seek unity amongst followers of Christ. The early guys left the RC church seeking to "reform" the church but not "restore" the church. They held on to many of their man made traditions and doctrines. I am not saying that folks in denominations are bad people or somehow I am better than they are. I am saying that the bible clearly teaches against denominational division but we continue to persist in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UncleAbee Posted February 16, 2011 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 109 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 1 Joined: 07/08/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted February 16, 2011 Some churches (Pentecostal) started a whole new fellowship because they wanted to be free to emotionally express themselves. None of these things are found as church practice for the NT Christian in the bible. BTW, I have to state that I disagree with this. If you think those of us who believe in the gifts of the Spirit, speak in tongues, raise our hands in worship, dance as David and Miriam danced before the Lord, etc. is all about an emotional experience - you are WRONG. Pentecostalism is a charismatic religion that focuses on direct individual experiences with God. These experiences are seen by them as mainly speaking in tongues and emotional expressiveness (dancing, slain in the spirit, frenzies, etc). Pentecostal practicers see these things as direct experiences with God. The bible does speak of all these things but that gives no one the authority to start the "Pentecostal church." There is nothing wrong with dancing for the Lord but there is something wrong when we start a church behind it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UncleAbee Posted February 16, 2011 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 109 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 1 Joined: 07/08/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted February 16, 2011 (edited) I agree with most of what you say. The idea of denominations did not start overnight. It evolved. Gal 5:9 says - "A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough." Things "creep" into the church and then become standard doctrine over time. I agree. We do know better. The early ones did pave the way. Knowing better we should know to reject the idea of division in the church and seek unity amongst followers of Christ. The early guys left the RC church seeking to "reform" the church but not "restore" the church. They held on to many of their man made traditions and doctrines. I am not saying that folks in denominations are bad people or somehow I am better than they are. I am saying that the bible clearly teaches against denominational division but we continue to persist in it. I would have to ask, what is the answer? How do we fix the problem? there are around 2 billion people on the planet that call themselves Christians. How do you propose we get them all on the "same sheet of music" as it were? It is a good bet that you and I dont agree on everything (since we dont even agree about denominations), whose view should we go with? We should go with the bible's view. That's the best way. Ask yourself these questions. Does the bible teach denominationalism? Can you as Christian teach or promote denominationalism? One scary thing about the bible is that Jesus says in Matt 7:13 - 14 - "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it." What this is saying is that "most" people are wrong and only a few will be saved. That is a scary biblical truth. All these doctrines of a church is a church, choose the church of your choice, you're ok as long as you believe in Jesus no matter how you got saved, etc. are bad doctrines and leading many to the broad path of destruction. For the church to be in unity it has to first reject denominationalism. Most of what keeps us seperate is things that pertain to "self." I am not an advocate of "man organized" religion. This is what we have today. Edited February 16, 2011 by UncleAbee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted February 16, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted February 16, 2011 The early guys left the RC church seeking to "reform" the church but not "restore" the church. They held on to many of their man made traditions and doctrines. I am not saying that folks in denominations are bad people or somehow I am better than they are. I am saying that the bible clearly teaches against denominational division but we continue to persist in it. Will you ever get a predestinationist to agree with a free-will-ist? Or hymns-only worshiper to sing together with a Contemporary music worshiper? Will you get the hymns-only worshiper to sing "Shout to the Lord"? Will the Contemporary music worshiper believe they've worshiped by singing "Sweet Hour of Prayer"? Some churches have Communion every Sunday as a normal part of the service. Some have it once a month with a special teaching. Some have it once a year with a whole special service. OK, how will you get them to come together on this? On and on and on. You see, it's easy to spout off principles. But how do you propose implementing or applying them? How would you break down these denominational walls? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted February 16, 2011 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,372 Content Per Day: 7.99 Reputation: 21,555 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted February 16, 2011 I was born and baptized in Church of christ denomination; it strictly follows the word and Jesus's teachings. I know your doctrine well and you have made the thief as to God unto him a respector of persons.... Love Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted February 16, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Some churches (Pentecostal) started a whole new fellowship because they wanted to be free to emotionally express themselves. None of these things are found as church practice for the NT Christian in the bible. BTW, I have to state that I disagree with this. If you think those of us who believe in the gifts of the Spirit, speak in tongues, raise our hands in worship, dance as David and Miriam danced before the Lord, etc. is all about an emotional experience - you are WRONG. Pentecostalism is a charismatic religion "Charismatic" religion and not "Christian" religion? Hmmmmm....... that focuses on direct individual experiences with God. Are you saying that you have not had any direct individual experiences with God? That such are wrong to have and encourage? How do you hear the Lord speaking to you if not by a direct individual experience? These experiences are seen by them as mainly speaking in tongues and emotional expressiveness (dancing, slain in the spirit, frenzies, etc). There's more to the Pentecostal denomination than this. Most charismatic congregations are non-denominational. Pentecostal practicers see these things as direct experiences with God. And what is un-biblical about this? The Bible is full of people who have had direct experiences with God. The bible does speak of all these things but that gives no one the authority to start the "Pentecostal church." There is nothing wrong with dancing for the Lord but there is something wrong when we start a church behind it. What if people did not know how else to congregate together. Where is your mercy in your judgment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted February 16, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted February 16, 2011 I would have to ask, what is the answer? How do we fix the problem? there are around 2 billion people on the planet that call themselves Christians. How do you propose we get them all on the "same sheet of music" as it were? It is a good bet that you and I dont agree on everything (since we dont even agree about denominations), whose view should we go with? We should go with the bible's view. That's the best way. Ask yourself these questions. Does the bible teach denominationalism? Can you as Christian teach or promote denominationalism? One scary thing about the bible is that Jesus says in Matt 7:13 - 14 - "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it." What this is saying is that "most" people are wrong and only a few will be saved. That is a scary biblical truth. All these doctrines of a church is a church, choose the church of your choice, you're ok as long as you believe in Jesus no matter how you got saved, etc. are bad doctrines and leading many to the broad path of destruction. For the church to be in unity it has to first reject denominationalism. Most of what keeps us seperate is things that pertain to "self." I am not an advocate of "man organized" religion. This is what we have today. Once again, you are telling us what we should NOT do. When will you say what we should DO? You say, "Follow the Bible's view." Fine - what is it? Please lay it out for us how this is supposed to work and what it looks like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted February 16, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted February 16, 2011 I often wonder why it is so easy for one person to find a nice biblical home while others have such a hard time. Yet, though this question is on my mind, what bothers me the most is the many disagreements that continue about how we all should just be a member, despite the differences. I ask myself why is it that important to sign a registry to beliefs we disagree with? I do not belong to any particular church, but I go to some and give as He moves me, be it to the church, an individual, or to a circumstance. Does it really matter if our name belongs on the registry of any given church or is it more important to belong to the body at whole, doing His work? As long as we are doing His will in our lives, it should not matter to anyone if we belong to a physical church or not. Sometimes I think God has some people outside of the denominational church structure to do His will for those who do not believe in denominations. Who are we to judge another in such matters anyway? If God has some in such a position, that is His choice. It does not mean that we "forsake the gathering" in any way, though some may and I can not speak for those who are true "lone rangers". Who knows ... God may also have them there for a reason. As long as people don't step outside of scripture, why does it matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheya joie Posted February 16, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,054 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 351 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/15/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 16, 2011 I never said it was wrong to leave an unbiblical church. It is wrong to start your own church. This is what the denominational fathers did. Ok... So you're in a scenario where your church has been taken over by unBiblical practices, and you have either left in obedience to the Lord's directive 'Come out and be separate' - or else the unBiblical leadership has kicked you out - and then what? If 'it is wrong to start your own church' and you can no longer go to your former church, what are you to do? Sit and twiddle your thumbs? (In other words, if the unrighteous have taken over the church and kicked out the righteous, what are the righteous to do?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua-777 Posted February 16, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 410 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 3,102 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 522 Days Won: 6 Joined: 10/19/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/07/1984 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Right now I'm going to a Messianic congregation, but I've been looking into and encouraged by a few Crismatic/Penticostal movements. The church I attended the longest was a Calvery Chapel, and grew up on tehir teachings. So I guess I'm a Nondenomessicostal. Can I just say i'm a child of God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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