Christians

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings George,

Good to see you peeking your head in.

Basically inside the Messianic movement, it's Jewish leadership and the voting rights of the movement are held exclusively to Jews and many gentiles feeling displaced out of the movements wanted to keep their "Jewish" roots but feel more important. So many of those who are caught up in the errors, are simply "gentiles" trying to be "more Jewish" than Jews!

Since you are in the "thick of things", do you believe these verses apply to the above:

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest yod]

:::interception::::

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

This could just as easily be talking about the Replacement theology in the church, Jehovah Witnesses, SDA, Orthodox Judaism, and a plethora of other groups who claim to be the "real" jews.

I don't think we can be dogmatic about "who" this is, DE.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Yod,

I think we have been through this before many times.

This could just as easily be talking about the Replacement theology in the church, Jehovah Witnesses, SDA, Orthodox Judaism, and a plethora of other groups who claim to be the "real" jews.

I don't think we can be dogmatic about "who" this is, DE.

When someone says that THEY are of "spiritual Israel", IOW, a Jew by covenant, THEN I might include them in those two verses in Revelation. However, it is quite clear in those verses that there ARE those who CLAIM to be Jews and are not. I do not think that "replacement theology" is discussed here, because there ARE those who reject Israel "out of hand" and even the thought of "spiritual Israel" is anathema to them.

Consider we have TWO churches, which by the way ARE gentile churches, AND from within each of them are SOME who CLAIM to be Jews but are not. It is not as if this doctrine was being preached in those churches, but a schism, much as in the days of Paul has arisen in those churches, where SOME ARE CLAIMING to be TRUE JEWS, and as in Paul's day, are trying to lead the members back "under the law" with all sorts of ceremonial holidays and restrictions upon what to eat and not to each, and probably teaching circumcision. Does that ring a bell?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest yod]

When someone says that THEY are of "spiritual Israel", IOW, a Jew by covenant, THEN I might include them in those two verses in Revelation. However, it is quite clear in those verses that there ARE those who CLAIM to be Jews and are not. I do not think that "replacement theology" is discussed here, because there ARE those who reject Israel "out of hand" and even the thought of "spiritual Israel" is anathema to them.

maybe you don't understand what replacement theology is? It is the belief that the church has become spiritual Israel....that all covenants and promises were transferred at the Cross. I've heard you teach a subtle brand of that with some of your opinions like when you take that verse (out of context) to say that the kingdom is transferred (given to the gentiles) when the verse is not talking about Israel but rather it's leadership at that time.

And a rather large group of people look at Romans 2:28-29 and apply it to themselves....without reading the context. Why couldn't this verse be talking TO messianic jews about christians who claim to be the REAL jews?

It is not as if this doctrine was being preached in those churches, but a schism, much as in the days of Paul has arisen in those churches, where SOME ARE CLAIMING to be TRUE JEWS, and as in Paul's day, are trying to lead the members back "under the law" with all sorts of ceremonial holidays and restrictions upon what to eat and not to each, and probably teaching circumcision. Does that ring a bell?

sort of...but not really.

The Ephramites are teaching that they are Israel...that's the northern kingdom of Ephraim not the southern kingdom of Judah...and therefore they are not claiming to be "jews" but Ephramites (or Israelites).

But some of them think that all messianics are Judah and all the Church is Ephraim

The whole movement has no real basic doctrines that everyone agrees to that I can tell except that there are 2 Houses (Judah & Israel) and they are in one of those camps. It's convoluted so I don't claim to speak for any of them actually.

But as far as I know, they don't claim to be jews but Israelites.

Is that about right, Yahsway??

[Guest yod]

[Catsmeow]

You go, bro!

[Guest LCPGUY]

Go Yod, go....

[Yahsway]

Yes Yod. I do not claim to be "jewish" at all. I am an Ephramite!

All Israel was once divided into Northern and southern Kingdoms. and they have never been fully reunited(Jer 3:14-18; Isa 11:14; Zech8:3-13; 10:7-10; Ezek. 37:15-28)

Scripture calls these two kingdoms, "both the houses of Israel" Gods "two-nations", and the two families that He chose (Isa. 8:14; Ezek.35:10; 37:22; Jer 33:23-26)

Those of Ephraim were scattered among every nation. There they were destined to become a "melo hagoyim", a "fullness of Gentiles" (Hosea 1-2; 8:8; Amos 9:9; Rom 11)

The gifts and calling of the God of Israel are without repentance. Therefore there remains an eternal call on all Israel, both Judah and Ephraim, to love and obey Him (Deu 28:1-6; Num 23:19; Isa 43:10; Rom 11:29)

The Ephraimites became degenerate, wild, olive branches. However, once they have returned to the olive tree of Israel, they are called to walk in such a way that will provoke those of Judah to be jealous of them and to want what they have. (Jer. 11:10,16; 2:18,21; Rom 11; 9:26; Hosea 1:9, Isa35:10; Ezek. 37:16)

Non-Jewish believers in Messiah are heirs of Abrahams promise, and therefore share citizenship in the commonwealth of Israel (Gen 17:4-7; Rom 4:17Gal 3:29' Eph 2:11-22)

When the Father makes the 2 sticks of Ezekiel "one stick in His hand" Israel will no longer be plucked up from the land, will no longer defile themselves with any of their transgressions, and will have one King-The King of Kings, Yeshua! A fully reunited Israel is a sinless Israel that lives under Messiahs rule in the Land of Promise (Ezek. 37:15-28)

Jews and Christians- Judah and Ephraim- are called to serve as two witnessess for the God of Israel. Their divine purpose is to confirm the truth of His word, from Genesis to Revelation, in all the earth (Num 35:30; Deu 17:6; 19:15; John 8:17; 2 Cor 13:1)

Israel was to be a "mystery" until the "fullness of Gentiles, "the "melo hagoyim" promised to Ephriam "be come in". (Gen 48:19 Jer 31:18,19 Rom 11:25

So , you are right. I am not jewish. All jews are Israelits, but not all Israelits are jews. Also, I do not like the term to study "jewish roots" I say to study Hebrew Roots of our Christian faith.

I know a lot of people jewish believers and christians do not celebrate the Feasts of the Lord, calling them "jewish feasts" But the scriptures do not call them that. They are the Feasts of the Lord. Holy convocations I believe he meant for us to practice and celebrate until His coming.

Someone said, well, they have been fullfilled. I said yes, but not all of them. And so what if they have, Christmas was also fullfilled yet some christians still practice it once a year. And I do not know anywhere in scripture where it is commanded to do so.

I do not believe that circumcision of the flesh saves anyone. It must be of the heart. Yes, I celebrate the feasts, but out of love for the Father, and out of respect for His appointed times, I do not claim that everyone has to, that is a personal choice. As for the food issue, Yes, we are Kosher, but again, that is others choice. I am no ones judge on these matters. I am commanded to love My God with all my heart and to love my neighbor as myself.

Yes, I also know of believers in both 2 house, different messianic congregations and so forth who take things to the extremes, trying to work out salvation thru works, but we are not all that way.

There needs to be a balance in the body, and in a lot of messianic assemblies sad to say there isnt.

Sorry so long. Thanks for your patience. Dad Ernie, you may not agree with me and thats okay, but i do want to tell you that I have read a lot of your post and agree with more than I disagree with. So, Shalom my friends, I hope after I post this you are all still my friends. blessings Cindy

[Guest yod]

well THAT should keep Dad Ernie busy for a while!

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings,

well THAT should keep Dad Ernie busy for a while!

Well, it certainly could, but I have responded to such doctrine so many times that I am just tired. I agree with Yahsway more than I disagree with her, same with you Yod.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie