Why do Catholics worship Mary?

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

Now that I have received some reasoned answers from some posters on this thread about Mary, allow me to ask another question that takes this a bit further.

Where does canonization fit in, and what part do the other "saints" (I believe we are are "saints" in one biblical sense), in the Catholic religion?

I can, and have, looked at official Catholic sites, but they would have a different explanation as to someone who is not Catholic but the very nature and intent of the site.

Do you mean canonization of doctrine or of saints which is called beautification?

And what would you like to know about where it fits, and the role of saints?

Saints in scripture are identified as any Christians, but the term simply means to belong to a religion. It was a term that was at the time in paganism, and even applied to temple prostitutes. It just means you're branded to a religion, but the RCC meaning is quite different.

Beautification - such as in Mother Theresa. What part do they play in the Catholic faith as far as the church and believers go? Are they prayed to as well.

Yes. They are the syncretism of the ancient pantheons.

Pantheists worshipped many deities, major ones and minor ones, endowed with varying abilities and charges over the human world. For instance Diana was the goddess of light and the protector or the innocent, Poseidon was the god of the sea, Venus was the goddess of love and beauty, Apollo was the god of music, etc. These roles changed and developed, but if you wanted something you appealed to the god under whose jurisdiction your request fell.

Their practices continued with the ‘Christian’ sounding language surrounding the pantheon of saints. Now there are the patron saints of this or that, like Mother Frances Cabrini is the Patron Saint of Immigrants, Saint Cecilia is the Patron Saint of music, etc.

To differentiate these ‘saints’ from Biblical saints, they had to invent a process (beautification) to set them apart as worthy of veneration (prayers and the submission of appeals), so that the pagan practices could be 'Christianized' with justification of the church traditions and revelation for support.

As to the meaning of "saints", I believe that it applies to any saved Christian, yes.

As do I believe (as mentioned in the great commission), that we are all to be disciples. One can hardly go out and make "disciples of nations", if one is not also a disciple, no?

Very true, especially since Jesus told the 12 specifically to teach the successive disciples “to obey everything I have commanded you” (Matt. 28:20), showing that what Peter said was true “Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons” (Acts 10:34).

For a guy who’s supposed to be the first pope, that statement stands in stark contrast to the guys who now adopt the term “High Holy Father” for themselves, as the popes are called (a title belonging to God alone).

Edited February 24, 2011 by OldEnglishSheepdog

[enoob57]

Worship God Only.... Love Steven

[Leonard]

People are often confused because of the single English word 'worship' which actually translates numerous words in the Latin. In reference to Mary, Catholics are taught to 'respect and honor' her, but to make her a goddess of some sort is far outside of Roman doctrine.

This isn't strictly accurate.

I've already quoted from the Catechism, and the pope refused to condemn the doctrine of exulting mary to the status of co-redemptrix at Vatican II.

This is a Catholic Church in Poland.

The RCC knows full well that they've put mary "Queen of Heaven" up there on the cross with Jesus - seen literally in the above graven image, which itself is blasphemy:

"You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman" (Deut. 4:15-16).

These doctrines are a far cry from what we see in scripture:

"While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him,

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

The 'co-redemptrix' doctrine of which you speak, is NOT an accepted Roman Catholic doctrine (Yet!).

I know.

What I said was that the pope refused to denounce it at Vatican II, but the principle is firmly grounded in the Catechism, and affirmed in the imagery propagated by the RCC.

Isn’t it true that John Paul II had written into his vestments “TOTUS TUUS SUM MARIA", meaning "Mary I’m all yours"?

If it becomes the official doctrine of the Roman church, then they will have passed beyond the pale of Christianity.

I'd say it's already gone well beyond that, for the reasons I've already outline, both in the prohibitions found in scripture as well as the clear adoption of paganism.

Do you REALLY believe that as you put it: "To ascribe any of the qualities of mediation between man and God to anyone other than Jesus is to attribute His divine office to another: 'For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus'" (1 Tim. 2:5)?

Yes, absolutely.

Every time you ask someone to pray for you they are in mediation for you. Every time YOU pray for someone else, you are in mediation for them.

We've already been over this.

First, I'm not praying to someone else when I ask for prayer. I share physical time and space with them, and communicate via appropriate means. I've already pointed out that we neither ask someone who is separated physically on earth from us for prayer by praying to them to pray for us, nor are we permitted to communicate with those who are physically dead, as per Deuteronomy.

Second, when I ask someone to pray for me, I'm not putting them up on that cross first like we see with mary.

You're creating a false dichotomy by pretending that asking for prayer cannot be made into worship because we ask other people for prayer, but then you're leaving out all of the important variables that have already been brought to light (communicating with the dead, the divine attributes ascribed to mary in the catechism and confirmed by the catholic imagery already presented here, the title "Queen of Heaven", asking her to answer to the affirmative what God has answered to the negative, etc.) to make the case.

Edited February 25, 2011 by OldEnglishSheepdog

[nebula]

First, I'm not praying to someone else when I ask for prayer. I share physical time and space with them, and communicate via appropriate means. I've already pointed out that we neither ask someone who is separated physically on earth from us for prayer by praying to them to pray for us, nor are we permitted to communicate with those who are physically dead, as per Deuteronomy.

Second, when I ask someone to pray for me, I'm not putting them up on that cross first like we see with mary.

You're creating a false dichotomy by pretending that asking for prayer cannot be made into worship because we ask other people for prayer, but then you're leaving out all of the important variables that have already been brought to light (communicating with the dead, the divine attributes ascribed to mary in the catechism and confirmed by the catholic imagery already presented here, the title "Queen of Heaven", asking her to answer to the affirmative what God has answered to the negative, etc.) to make the case.

To this I could add -

When asking someone here on earth for prayer, that person can pray with you or pray over you.

When asking "a saint" for payer, this can't happen.

[Guest]

Every time you ask someone to pray for you they are in mediation for you. Every time YOU pray for someone else, you are in mediation for them.

We've already been over this.

First, I'm not praying to someone else when I ask for prayer. I share physical time and space with them, and communicate via appropriate means. I've already pointed out that we neither ask someone who is separated physically on earth from us for prayer by praying to them to pray for us, nor are we permitted to communicate with those who are physically dead, as per Deuteronomy.

Second, when I ask someone to pray for me, I'm not putting them up on that cross first like we see with mary.

You're creating a false dichotomy by pretending that asking for prayer cannot be made into worship because we ask other people for prayer, but then you're leaving out all of the important variables that have already been brought to light (communicating with the dead, the divine attributes ascribed to mary in the catechism and confirmed by the catholic imagery already presented here, the title "Queen of Heaven", asking her to answer to the affirmative what God has answered to the negative, etc.) to make the case.

The LORD

Verily, verily, I say unto you,

He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also;

and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 14:12-15

And The Queen Of Heaven

Then all the men which knew that their wives had burned incense unto other gods, and all the women that stood by, a great multitude, even all the people that dwelt in the land of Egypt, in Pathros, answered Jeremiah, saying,

As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the LORD, we will not hearken unto thee.

But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.

And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?

Then Jeremiah said unto all the people, to the men, and to the women, and to all the people which had given him that answer, saying,

The incense that ye burned in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, ye, and your fathers, your kings, and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the LORD remember them, and came it not into his mind?

So that the LORD could no longer bear, because of the evil of your doings, and because of the abominations which ye have committed; therefore is your land a desolation, and an astonishment, and a curse, without an inhabitant, as at this day.

Because ye have burned incense, and because ye have sinned against the LORD, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, nor walked in his law, nor in his statutes, nor in his testimonies; therefore this evil is happened unto you, as at this day. Jeremiah 44:15-23

[Gentlewind]

Dear Worthy Brothers and Sisters,

If you are truly interested in understanding our Catholic brothers and sisters, I would seriously suggest directing your questions directly to them. I am a member of Defenders of the Catholic Faith, although I am not Catholic. *Edit links* If you ask your questions politely, they will answer politely. Please don't go to their forum just to show "great Protestant wisdom" or to denigrate their faith.

You might be surprised.

Also, here is and *edit links* website with easy to understand, concise info about Catholicism. *edit links*You can pick up a paperback copy of the Catechism for under ten dollars. Again, you will be surprised. There is MUCH you will agree with in its pages. And much of it is backed with scripture reference.

Catholics worship only God. God is Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They 'venerate' Mary and the saints, which is not the same as worship. They believe that Mary and the saints are very much alive in heaven and can hear our requests to pray for us. They believe the more brothers and sisters, in heaven or on earth, that we have praying for us, the better. A primary focus is family. God is our Father in heaven. Mary is our Mother in heaven. We are the Children of God. Mary is greatly loved and admired as an example of a woman highly favored by God. They are the ones who canonized the Bible you read. Their "Bible" has seven books that ours does not--those books were removed after the Reformation. They believe in Apostolic Succession--that Peter was, in essence, the first pope, and they have a long, long, long list of each of the successive popes up to Pope Benedict XVI, who is the current pope. They believe in confessing their sin to the priest, but it is God who does the forgiving. The central focus of every worship service, which they call "Mass" is the Eucharist; the bread and the wine; they believe in what is called "the real presence", meaning that the bread and wine are changed into the real flesh and blood, soul and divinity, of Christ and are consumed at every Mass. They believe all forms of birth control are a sin, with the exception of Natural Family Planning, and are, of course, very set against abortion. They do not believe in the Bible as the only source of our faith (Sola Scriptura), but also base their faith on such things as the writings of the early Church Fathers and writings of the Saints, many of which were written by those taught by the original apostles who walked with Jesus. And they adhere to certain 'oral tradition.' They believe in Seven Holy "Sacraments" which are: baptism, eucharist, reconciliation, confirmation, marriage, holy orders, and anointing of the sick. The cross is always shown as a crucifix with the Lord upon it. They believe in "Purgatory" which is a place our spirit goes to be perfected before entering into the presence of God. They do not believe in "once saved, always saved" but believe we must "work out our salvation with fear and trembling." They believe that true faith will produce works that are considered "meritorious", but do not teach that it is our works that save us. They DO NOT teach that you must be Catholic to be saved.

Catholicism is a very structured faith and it is ancient, going back hundreds of years before the Reformation. All Protestant churches have sprung up only in the last 500 or so years.

Protestants vary greatly in their interpretation of the Bible. Catholics do not have that problem, as they accept the interpretation as rendered by the Catholic Church.

I'm not Catholic, as I can not agree with everything they believe, but I have come to respect their faith and love them as brothers and sisters in Christ. We have an enemy, and they are not it. There is much beauty and spiritual wisdom that can be gleaned from the Catholic Church, even if we can't agree on all doctrine.

If you wish to learn about Catholicism, please ask a qualified Catholic. There are so many untruths and rumors about Catholicism, it takes a diligent effort to sort out what they REALLY believe.

With Much Love of Christ,

Gw

Edited February 28, 2011 by Matthitjah

[Fez]

They believe that Mary and the saints are very much alive in heaven and can hear our requests to pray for us. They believe the more brothers and sisters, in heaven or on earth, that we have praying for us, the better. A primary focus is family. God is our Father in heaven. Mary is our Mother in heaven. We are the Children of God. Mary is greatly loved and admired as an example of a woman highly favored by God. They are the ones who canonized the Bible you read. Their "Bible" has seven books that ours does not--those books were removed after the Reformation

I did not start this post by just asking the question. I did some reading first. The highlighted areas above I can find no scriptural basis for. The seven books were removed after the reformation for a very good reason. Where does it say in the bible that Mary is our mother in heaven, for instance?

They believe all forms of birth control are a sin,

The Pope has recently "opened the door" on this question. They have been a bit slow to react?

They believe in "Purgatory" which is a place our spirit goes to be perfected before entering into the presence of God.

Scriptural reference? Otherwise it is a nice "out", allowing us to sin to a degree before we go to "training school"

They do not believe in the Bible as the only source of our faith (Sola Scriptura), but also base their faith on such things as the writings of the early Church Fathers and writings of the Saints, many of which were written by those taught by the original apostles who walked with Jesus.

Where is the scriptural reference to this?

They believe in confessing their sin to the priest

Where is the scriptural reference to this?

They are the ones who canonized the Bible you read

Why? One of the reasons is to have complete control over the thinking of their followers. There was a time when ordinary people who followed the faith could not even own a bible.

Protestants vary greatly in their interpretation of the Bible. Catholics do not have that problem, as they accept the interpretation as rendered by the Catholic Church.

Can you understand how dangerous that is? Jesus never preached dictatorship.

Having said the above, my wife and my mother (now with God, directly to heaven, with no "way station" on the way), were both Catholics. No more.

Once they started to read the bible on their own (they would tell you that they were not encouraged to read the bible, but to get all their teachings from the church), they began to see a dawning light. My mother for instance, at the age of 12, wearing a communion dress and having been dropped off at the door of the church by her alcoholic father, said to herself, "I want to talk to Jesus, not some man in a box" (her words, not mine). And she began at the age of 12, with no prompting to read. She spent the rest of her life a Protestant, a church goer, and Sunday school teacher, and she died with a faith that awed me. It was completely and utterly unshakable.

But, I have nothing but love and respect for my Catholic brothers and sisters, many who are good friends of mine. The church itself? Where is Martin Luther when you need him?

[B3L13v3R]

Quote: "Where is Martin Luther when you need him?"

He still speaks today:

The 95 Theses

by Dr. Martin Luther

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/95theses.htm

[Gentlewind]

Hi Fez. I was only trying to state what Catholics believe to be true, not present the beliefs as either true or false. Again, if you want to know why they believe as they do--ask them, one question at a time. (Each point is a topic in itself.) They have reasons for everything they believe. They even have scriptural references for much of it. Whether we agree with their reasoning or not is up to each one of us. I was surprised to "see" some of what they presented, but couldn't wrap my mind around all of it.

I wasn't born into any church, and faith was not a part of my upbringing. Until I came to the forums, I had no idea of the division and confusion in this faith. I try to focus on simple, basic beliefs that "mainstream" Christianity accepts, for the most part. (However, I've seen people question even those . . . )

Personally, I've narrowed it down to this:

If you love the Father

If you love the Son

If the Holy Spirit shines in you . . . then you are my brother and my sister.

We can in no way get around the fact that Jesus called us to love--even our enemies. Seeking to understand is one way we can love, even if we find we don't agree.

(Sorry if I sound "preachy". It's not directed at you, personally, but people of specific denomination, in general. I spent 2 years on a forum seeking unity between Protestants and Catholics. I came away believing that love is the only unity there will ever be. But, we should never underestimate the power of love. Amen?)

1 John 2:21-23 (New Living Translation)

²¹ So I am writing to you not because you don't know the truth but because you know the difference between truth and lies. ²² And who is a liar? Anyone who says that Jesus is not the Christ. Anyone who denies the Father and the Son is an antichrist. ²³ Anyone who denies the Son doesn't have the Father, either. But anyone who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Peace be with you.

Gw