God's Soverenty

[hr.jr.]

Bill, God is soverign. That does not mean He can do anything. That does not mean that everything that happens is the perfect will of God. God plainly tells us that it is not His will than any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Does that happen? No! God made covenant with man. God can not lie. God can not, nor does He even desire to break covenant with man. God chose to give man free will. When He gave us this free will, He gave us a degree of control. He gave us authority and He willingly gave up authority.

I have said this so many times I sound like a broken record but you have just made, here, an open ended charge that is unsupported by scripture. I might not even choose to dispute your point but to follow the world that is driven by their god, Satan and not follow Christian manors and stewardship is unacceptable. I have given a great deal of scripture to make my point and you offer nothing more than empty words off the top of your head, very bad form.

No point in getting upset. We can have a debate without getting all worked up. First of all, you cut and pasted from Nave's topical. You did not exactly spend 1,000 hours developing a great hermenutical thesis on soverignty.

You posted a list of scripture references of which I believe you have taken out of context. I posted one scripture that soundly defeats your interpretation of the entire soup of scriptures you mixed together and poured out. One thing you might learn in studying Theology is that you base doctrine on totality of scripture, not on individual passages. It is quite plain from the totality of scripture that God has willingly given up much of His authority on this earth to man. That theme runs clearly from Genesis, where God first gave authority to man, to Revelation the book in which He again returns to take all authority back to Himself. If you apply the second leg of Theology which is know as "Natural Theology," you will further observe that God is not ruling this Earth with an Iron fist. You will actually observe that quite the opposite is true.

You must take into account that God has a perfect will, but He allows many things to happen that are in no way in His perfect will.

You say I use "very bad form." I would contend that posting a concordance, as you did, is far worse form.

There comes a point in time that we must apply just a touch of common sense into our interpretation of The Word.

Was it God's will that Satan Rebel?

Was it God's will that Adam Sin?

Was it God's will that man attempt to build the Tower of Babel?

Was it God's will that the entire Earth save Noah and his family fall into sin so badly there was no hope to redeem them?

Is it God's will that any man go to Hell?

Was the holocaust God's will?

Was the rapes and murdeers performed by Ted Bundy God's will?

None of the above were God's will. They are all examples of man exercising his own free will.

I wasn't upset and I'm not upset but you are still speaking of the top of your head and that is absolutely how heresy begins. So I'm left to believe that you are unable to use your Bible. All of what you have said to this point is pointless because you have pointed nobody to the Word of God. Up to this point you are trying, in vain, to teach a Bible Teacher.

Bill, I referenced scripture. Moreover, I referenced themes. I can give you citations for every scripture and theme I referenced. I, like you, am a Bible teacher. I prefer to reference a scripture or reference a theme in the Word of God over quoting scripture verbatim. Why? It causes the person who is truly interested in learning to seek the truth out in The Word for himself. I know from the top of my head the citation to 80% of the scriptures I reference. The others, I could find in 5 seconds using my bible software. True scriptural understanding is not gained from looking up citations; it is gained from digging for it in The Word yourself.

If you truly want a discussion on God's soverignty, I am game. If you want to post and counter post out of Naves, a concordance, or another topical Bible; I will avoid entangling myself in that waste of time.

Do you want me to post a Citation for everything I referenced above? It is easy enough to do, but utterly pointless. The soverignty of God is a valid doctrine to discuss under the umbrella of "Theology." If you want to debate it based on the common method of "doing theology," I wll gladly join in. If you want to throw a pile of citations in one side of the scale and a pile of citations in the other (most of which on both side are out of context) and see which way the scale tips; I will pass on that.

[Guest]

It Is Written

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isaiah 55:11

____________

_________

______

___

.... prefer to reference a scripture or reference a theme in the Word of God over quoting scripture verbatim. Why? It causes the person who is truly interested in learning to seek the truth out in The Word for himself...

A Point

Whereas Worthy Is A 24/7/365 World-Wide Witness To Jesus

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world. John 11:25-27

And Whereas Many Of The Folk Who Read Worthy Do Not Have A Holy Bible

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mark 16:15

And Whereas Many Will Not Desire To Leave Traces To On-Line Bibles Their Jailers Can Notice

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. John 8:34-36

Beloved, It Maybe Encouraging In Some Threads To Drop A Taste Or Two Of The Priceless Word Of God We So Treasure

And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people. Isaiah 51:16

____________

_________

______

___

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

[th1bill]

It Is Written

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isaiah 55:11

____________

_________

______

___

.... prefer to reference a scripture or reference a theme in the Word of God over quoting scripture verbatim. Why? It causes the person who is truly interested in learning to seek the truth out in The Word for himself...

A Point

Whereas Worthy Is A 24/7/365 World-Wide Witness To Jesus

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world. John 11:25-27

And Whereas Many Of The Folk Who Read Worthy Do Not Have A Holy Bible

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mark 16:15

And Whereas Many Will Not Desire To Leave Traces To On-Line Bibles Their Jailers Can Notice

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. John 8:34-36

Beloved, It Maybe Encouraging In Some Threads To Drop A Taste Or Two Of The Priceless Word Of God We So Treasure

And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people. Isaiah 51:16

____________

_________

______

___

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

Thank you Joe! If I continue with him and he keeps pushing his intentional ignorance I'll be in danger of being banned and I have chosen to not go there.

[godrulz]

I believe Calvinism/determinism/compatibilism is the wrong paradigm foisted on proof texts out of context. Free will theisms are more biblical with Open Theism being a more biblical, coherent free will view than Arminianism. There are various models of providence/sovereignty, so the goal is to find the biblical, true one that does not impugn God's character and ways.

[childeye]

I believe Calvinism/determinism/compatibilism is the wrong paradigm foisted on proof texts out of context. Free will theisms are more biblical with Open Theism being a more biblical, coherent free will view than Arminianism. There are various models of providence/sovereignty, so the goal is to find the biblical, true one that does not impugn God's character and ways.

Well said, have you read my thread titled freewills gospel in the doctrine forum? I would love to read a response. Thank you.

[godrulz]

I believe Calvinism/determinism/compatibilism is the wrong paradigm foisted on proof texts out of context. Free will theisms are more biblical with Open Theism being a more biblical, coherent free will view than Arminianism. There are various models of providence/sovereignty, so the goal is to find the biblical, true one that does not impugn God's character and ways.

Well said, have you read my thread titled freewills gospel in the doctrine forum? I would love to read a response. Thank you.

Can you link it here?

[th1bill]

I believe Calvinism/determinism/compatibilism is the wrong paradigm foisted on proof texts out of context. Free will theisms are more biblical with Open Theism being a more biblical, coherent free will view than Arminianism. There are various models of providence/sovereignty, so the goal is to find the biblical, true one that does not impugn God's character and ways.

A former Pastor of mine coined the term, "Biblicist." when it was demanded that he state his position and choose either Calvinist or Armenian. Likewise I have chosen to avoid either of the main-stream position lines of thought because some scripture must be ignored to support both lines of thought. So, from this moment, like myself, you are a Biblicist!

[MelodyCat]

Opps! Forget it I didn't make sense to me.

[Believer112]

Well death comes to all of us (except those fortunate to escape it through the Rapture).

Nothing will kill a person under God's Sovereignty? Yet Jesus was killed under the full Sovereignty of the Lord because Jesus said to the Father,"not my will but thine be done" and that meant dying on the Cross.

The only thing that does kill us in the end is God's Sovereign Will. Like Jesus many prophets died under the Sovereignty of God and so did the Apostles. These were Saved Believers under God's Sovereign will.

There is nothing stopping me from being killed today even though I truly believe God is Sovereign, I know that in book of Job the Bible shows us the Devil has to ask permission to raise his hand against a child of God. So even whatever the Devil manages to send against us is under God's Sovereignty.

I have a number chronic illnesses and recently had a tumour operated on which was found to be benign, Praise God He spared me having to fight cancer. I am not saying God is not able to Save us from death. Time and again He certainly had done that for me. I just don't believe it is a guarantee. I know many Christian friends and family who have recently died from various illnesses and one in a Natural disaster. Was God Sovereign for them? Yes He was. His Sovereign Will was to take them Home to be with Him.

We all live to die one day. Wether that be soon or avoided by us going up in the Rapture only God knows.

I Praise God and Trust in Him as the One who can cover me and save me from many dangers in this world that can take my life (including sickness). I also know that the Lord has my days numbered and I pray for Him to prepare me for that day if it is to come before the Rapture. I keep at peace knowing God will give me the strength to face whatever I need to in this lifetime.

No one who is the Lord's should fear death for the Lord will give us the ability to go through whatever we have to face in our lifetime but only when the time comes. I praise God for my operation that was in time to spare me from Cancer and certainly possible death. However I remain mindful that I can still be killed by some other means tomorrow. I just trust in God for His timing of my departure from this Earth.

Satan has come to kill, steal and destroy, you'll never recognize his work if you think God is doing it.

First of all I didn't attribute Satans work to God. You obviously are not familiar with Job.

JOB 1:8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

JOB 1:9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. 10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

JOB 1:12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."

Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

I didn't say God was doing Satan's Work, what I said was that Satan had to ask permission to touch the Children of God.

Also you will note what else the New Testament says about Satan and his ability to do anything against Christians (note I am talking about Saved Believers here):-

1PE 5:8 Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 9 Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

One more thing Satan has to flee from those who are under God's Sovereignty (which what you are when you Submit to God). So Satan's ability to kill a Christian only happens when God allows it.

JAS 4:7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Come near to God and he will come near to you.

Satan is not the powerful being you imagine him to be. Like you and me he is created by God and fully under God's Sovereign power. Actually even this whole battle between God and Satan is fully under God's power and authority. Satan's days are numbered, he only has a short time. Soon he will be thrown into the Abyss and then let out after the Thousand year Rule of Jesus on this earth for one more chance to try and defeat Jesus. Like the first time the Devil and all who follow him lose the war and God throws him into the Eternal Lake of Fire. Satan's future is written in stone because God is Sovereign. Don't attribute to Satan more than he is. He is a Created Being waiting for his final judgement day under the full control of God.

That is why I am sure when my time is going to be up in this world it will only be when God deems it is over. Our lifespan is in God's hands. Not the scripture I wanted but I couldn't find the one I was hoping to share with you. This says a similar thing that God determines the number of months or days or years for each person and the Devil doesn't get to change that of his own accord.

JOB 14:5 Man's days are determined; you have decreed the number of his months and have set limits he cannot exceed.

I hope this enables you to see Satan for what he is, more bluff than power.

Job was not a New Testament saint. The difference between us and him is Jesus! Job and his friends were rebuked for some of the things they said and also they didn't know there was a devil, Would I be considered a good and loving father if I gave drug dealers, prostitutes, thieves, and murders permission to tempt my kids? Satan is the ruler if this world until Jesus's return. Our days are numbered but satan and our flesh can shorten our days. If I over eat, is it Gods fault if I die of heart disease? I believe satan is a defeated foe by the blood of Jesus! But he has great influence over man today, have you read the book of revaluations? The bible teaches us how to live and to have life more abundantly thru the Power that works within us.The bible does say God will reign for a thousand years when He cleans house in the near future, come Lord Jesus come!

[other one]

when you pray for our Lord Jesus to come, do you really realize what your asking.... 2/3rds of the worlds population and a lorge part of the world itself wil be destroyed before he sets foot on the mountain...... that's about 5 billion people that wil perish and most if not all of them are not saved.....

If you know anyone who is not saved, you are condemning them to hell with that prayer.