Why Choose Christianity?

[Guest]

Every time I look at this thead and the continuing debate I have been challenged to offer the following texts but have so far resisted. But I can do so no longer.

You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit

[nebula]

A Muslim - I added to my above post (mentioning in case you read things previously without responding yet).

Also, I thought of a way to explain how Christians view sin and why we regard it as something that requires redemption and atonement.

Consider a cold. Someone with a cold has a stuffy runny nose (nasal congestion), cough, body temperature change, fatigue, etc. To treat a cold medicinally, the cold medicines work to relieve these symptoms. But a cold is not the symptoms; the cold is a virus causing the symptoms. Unfortunately, we do not have the means to treat viruses medicinally.

Or consider a genetic disease or an autoimmune disease. Likewise, all our medicines and treatments can do is treat the symptoms. We have not the means to treat cure the disease.

So it is with religion. "Sins" are immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these. If your solution is to give incentives to not do these things, pray a certain amount of times a day, dressing a certain way, and such - your religion is treating the symptoms but not curing the "sin" causing the "sins."

"Sin" is a spiritual disease. It's like a virus in that it we can be infected with temptations and succumb to them. It is like a a genetic disease in that it is a corruption to the original design we are born with, passed down from the corruption imparted through our parents (beginning with the original parents, Adam and Eve). It is like an autoimmune disease in that our own defenses meant for healing are tricked to turn against us. These are what cause the "sins" mentioned above.

The cure for "sin" is not self-discipline, self-effort, making choices, etc.

It requires a blood transfusion (spiritually). And that is why the perfect blood of God had to come to us and be poured out for us. Because only in the giving of the blood can it be given to us. His perfect body for my diseased body. His holy blood for my unholy blood. (Spiritually)

Now I'm imagining a rebuttal concerning why the symptoms then remain or something similar. Consider how with physical medical treatments, some symptoms are cleared up quickly while others take many applications of treatment before the symptoms, or the cause of the symptoms, are cured away. And living in a non-disease-free environment can result in new infections entering the body, which themselves then need treatment. This is the best explanation I can give for that.

[A Muslim]

So it is your assersition that God does not require blood?

Yes.

[A Muslim]

It may have happened that Jesus made some allusions to the concept of dying for people's sins in the NT, but actually these allusions and so brief in a manner that doesn't meet with a major belief that has to be stated deliberately.

Allusions!? I would say fulfillment. It was prophesied from the beginning in the Garden of Eden and continuously expanded and reiterated for 4 thousand years, prefigured with the implementation of the Mosaic Covenant, addressed by Jesus before and after His crucifixion, alluded to by the apostles and first disciples (Acts), and finally wrapped up by Paul (Romans, Colossians) and the author of Hebrews.

Well, this is your opinion, I don't see it that way, you can see my conversation with nebula as we talked about this issue.

There are over a hundred prophecies about Jesus in the Old Testament addressing all aspects and significance of His life, ministry and death. Jesus did not have to add anything but to fulfill what was written and expected of Him. That is why He constantly referred His hearers back to Scripture. The faithful Jews who were not contaminated by the corrupted religion of those days accepted Him as the promised Messiah and were baptized into the New Covenant. Many other signs followed suite, like the coming of the Holy Spirit, the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple and the universal dissemination of the Gospel.

I don't see Jesus quoting any prophecy telling that he came to die for our sins. You believe these are prophecies foretelling about him, Jesus didn't.

Then ask God to give you understanding. Jesus' atonement for sin is not a theory but the fulfillment of God's perfect justice, love and mercy.

And why don't you ask God give you the understanding to my belief? I don't believe that your faith is tru nor do you believe mine is true, so the judge here is reason.

The costly debt Adam incurred for all of us,

If Adam sinned, why should we be condemned for his sin? This is against God's Justice.

How can sin be atoned for? By shedding of blood. Because life -the very thing that sin will cost you- is in the blood (Lev 17:11), only the shedding of blood can remit sin (Heb 9:22). During the Old Testament times this was done by a complicated system of animal sacrifices centered on physical structures (improvised altars in the wilderness, at the tabernacle in the tent of the congregation and at the Jerusalem temple.) With the arrival of the prophesied Messiah the ultimate, eternal and definitive sacrifice was centered on the Person of Jesus Christ.

so Jesus was the sacrifice so that people don't need to do that anymore, actually this is really weird, because if this was the case, then Christians must fulfill the laws of the Old Testament and leave only that law, but actually they neither obey that law nor the other laws, but it appears as if the law is taken selectively when it meets their belief, besides, Jesus forgave the adulterer in John 8 (although there is a doubt in referring this story to Jesus), and he didn't need for example to be stoned so that he abrogates stoning the adulterers, plus, the same question still remains, where did Jesus say "I am the sacrifice of the OT", or anything like that?

Besides, there are many questions concering that point. Now it is supposed that God wants to give people salvation and forgive them without restricting them with the atonement, what is need that He becomes a man and humiliates Himself when He can just send a lamb as He did with Abraham's son when He sent a lamb instead of letting himself die for people? The Old Testament didn't say that the atonement will be God Himself, but in most cases it was a lamb, and He could have easily redeemed people like what He did with Abraham and his son. I see that this is against God's mightiness, God doesn't die and doesn't pain from people who worth compared to His creation. I see this as a blasphemy that shows that God can do nothing except that He Himself dies.

The second thing, who killed Jesus? Were they sinned people who wanted atonement? No, They were the Jews who fought Jesus and killed him as an opposition to his message. So they were not actually giving atonement, they were sinning. How can a sin be an atonement for a sin? An atonement is supposed to be a good deed from a man who repented for his sin not from a man who is sinning by this atonement. So actually I don't see that this is a sacrifice for love, it is an action with no meaning, like if a man thinks that when he loves another, he expresses his love by killing himself with no need to sacrifice his beloved person.

[A Muslim]

What are the role of works in Islam? When you die are your works judged? In your religion are your good works weighed against your evil works, or is there something else? If it is his mercy that sends you to heaven, why are you required to do good works?

People must work as much as they can and they will be judged for their work and if they outweigh their sins, God promised them with Heaven. This is God's Mercy that He promised us with this, otherwise no works could be enough to cover God's blessings and grace from our creation to all gifts we were given through our life.

[A Muslim]

Have you ever gotten a personal word from Allah? Has Allah ever spoken directly and personally to you with words, thoughts, visions?

I don't believe that this would happen, the question is, how do you make sure that the one appearing to you is Jesus not the Satan?

OK, since you asked a question, I'll answer.

Well, He kept me from committing suicide, provoked me to love Him and the Father more, broke through some bondages I was oppressed with, things like that.

Also, when people have spoken "words of knowledge" and "words of revelation" over me I could tell it was the Lord because they broke chains of bondages from me as well.

Would Satan cast out Satan?

Jesus told us to examine fruits, and the fruits speak volumes.

Something else, with "words of knowledge" and "words of revelation" I have spoken to others and others have spoken to me, quite often either confirms or uncovers what was hidden in the heart or things the Lord had been placing in their heart or it puts pieces together they or I were puzzling over. Things like that.

(Just so you know, when I previously said "prophecy/ prophesied" these were not foretelling the future but revealing what was concealed with regards to current situations.

Well, actually I can give much stories about people talking about miracles or visions occurring to themselves from different streams either in Islam or in Christianity or even paganism all these sects claims similar things are they all true and from God? Of course not, only one is true, and this is a tactic from Satan to drive people away from the right belief through things like these to let the adherents to this false belief adhere more to their belief. What I mean is that I don't believe these kinds of things are a real evidence, but the real evidence is looking through scriptures and analyzing beliefs.

[Guest shiloh357]

People must work as much as they can and they will be judged for their work and if they outweigh their sins, God promised them with Heaven.

So, no matter how evil you might be, if you have done enough good works to outweigh your evil works, then you merit heaven? So I could murder someone but if I do enough good works to offset the act of murder, I will still go to heaven?

So, how do you know in this life, if you have done enough good to outweigh your evil? I mean, is there a way to know for sure in this life what your eternal destiny is going to be?

[Jorge S]

Well, this is your opinion, I don't see it that way, ....

I don't see Jesus quoting any prophecy telling that he came to die for our sins. You believe these are prophecies foretelling about him, Jesus didn't.

Dear A Muslim,

I learned all of that from the Bible. It is not my invention. That God Himself would come in flesh to die for our sins is not the kind of naturally-occurring idea to be expected out of a human brain. We know this by revelation and we saw the fulfillment in Jesus.

See, for example, these prophetic passages:

* He is despised and rejected of men; a Man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as it were a hiding of faces from Him, He being despised, and we esteemed Him not. Surely He has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions; He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was on Him; and with His stripes we ourselves are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, each one to his own way; and Jehovah has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and He was afflicted; yet He opened not His mouth. He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter; and as a sheep before its shearers is dumb, so He opened not His mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment; and who shall declare His generation? For He was cut off out of the land of the living; for the transgression of My people He was stricken. And He put His grave with the wicked, and with a rich one in His death; although He had done no violence, nor was any deceit in His mouth. Yet it pleased Jehovah to crush Him; to grieve Him; that He should put forth His soul as a guilt-offering. He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the will of Jehovah shall prosper in His hand. He shall see the fruit of the travail of His soul. He shall be fully satisfied. By His knowledge shall My righteous Servant justify for many; and He shall bear their iniquities. ... He has poured out His soul to death; and He was counted among the transgressors; and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for transgressors. (Isa 53:3-11)

* Seventy weeks are decreed as to your people and as to your holy city, to finish the transgression and to make an end of sins, and to make atonement for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy. (Dan 9:24)

Jesus plainly said several times that He had to die for others. Here is another citation:

* ... the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many. (Mat 20:28)

And why don't you ask God give you the understanding to my belief? I don't believe that your faith is tru nor do you believe mine is true, so the judge here is reason.

Truth rather is or is not. Among different and irreconcilable views only one is true.

Men love to divide and classify themselves according to race, creed, culture, wealth and many other criteria but for God we are all equally His children. Adam and Eve transgressed and brought sin into this world before Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism or any other religion was born. Therefore, God's solution to the problem of sin applies universally to all humankind. That solution is Jesus Christ.

I understand your religious background but that's not the point. I'm preaching you 'Jesus, and Him crucified'.

If Adam sinned, why should we be condemned for his sin? This is against God's Justice.

When Adam sinned he separated himself from God, brought death upon himself and provoked the cursing of the earth. All his descendants are thus born in a state of separation from Our Creator into a cursed world and with a death sentence in our souls.

God's Justice is revealed in that the human race was not annihilated right away and a plan of redemption was announced, implemented and fulfilled in Jesus, the only Person ever given to mankind Whose sacrificial 'deed' at the cross satisfies God's standards for the eternal forgiveness of sins. That is why He is the Only Way to God the Father, as He Himself proclaimed in the Gospels.

You can do as many good deeds as you like; they cannot save you unless you have Jesus. We are saved by Grace which is a gift from God that does not depend on anything we can do.

Blessings

[nebula]

Well, actually I can give much stories about people talking about miracles or visions occurring to themselves from different streams either in Islam or in Christianity or even paganism all these sects claims similar things are they all true and from God? Of course not, only one is true, and this is a tactic from Satan to drive people away from the right belief through things like these to let the adherents to this false belief adhere more to their belief. What I mean is that I don't believe these kinds of things are a real evidence, but the real evidence is looking through scriptures and analyzing beliefs.

I know the principles. But you were asking how I know, not how I could convince you.

[Guest]

Atonement

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Romans 5:8-12

____________

I don't see Jesus quoting any prophecy telling that he came to die for our sins. You believe these are prophecies foretelling about him, Jesus didn't.

Jesus

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Isaiah 53:10-11

Saves

Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Matthew 16:20-23

____________

If Adam sinned, why should we be condemned for his sin? This is against God's Justice.

Dear One, Please Do Not Accuse God

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. James 1:13-15

All Sin

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Romans 3:23

And All Have Earned Death

For the wages of sin is death; Romans 6:23(a)

But Jesus

but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23(b)

Offers Life

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:3

And Life More Abundantly

The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. John 10:10

If You Would But Believe

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

____________

Believe

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

And Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe