Rapture Question

[Rekrap]

First, PLEASE let's not turn this into a debate on whether there will be a Rapture or not. Thanks.

Okay, my question to those that do believe we will be raptured:

Do you think we will be raptured before the Antichrist appears on the scene, or after?

There is biblical confirmation in Isaiah 26:19-21, Psalm 75:2, Psalm 50:1-6, Song of Solomon 2:8-13, Joel 2, 2 Thess 2, Rev 6 & 7, Matt 24, Rev 12 & 13 among other places that the gathering to God is before the antichrist arrives on scene.

In fact, if you read Revelation 12 and 13 you will see that the antichrist blasphemes the heaven-dwellers described as the church. We have to be dwelling in heaven for the antichrist to be blasheming us!

"heaven-dwellers described as the church" Do not add what is not there. He blasphemes God and those that dwell in heaven. How does that describe the church?

[Rekrap]

First, PLEASE let's not turn this into a debate on whether there will be a Rapture or not. Thanks.

Okay, my question to those that do believe we will be raptured:

Do you think we will be raptured before the Antichrist appears on the scene, or after?

There is biblical confirmation in Isaiah 26:19-21, Psalm 75:2, Psalm 50:1-6, Song of Solomon 2:8-13, Joel 2, 2 Thess 2, Rev 6 & 7, Matt 24, Rev 12 & 13 among other places that the gathering to God is before the antichrist arrives on scene.

In fact, if you read Revelation 12 and 13 you will see that the antichrist blasphemes the heaven-dwellers described as the church. We have to be dwelling in heaven for the antichrist to be blasheming us!

"heaven-dwellers described as the church" Do not add what is not there. He blasphemes God and those that dwell in heaven. How does that describe the church?

The heaven-dwellers were defined earlier:

Rev 12:

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The only people who "overcome by the blood of the Lamb" is the church.

It says "now is come salvation...and the Kingdom".

It says "our brethren"

Read verse 12 again! The overcame "him". They overcame the devil. These are all the ones that John saw earlier in his vision in Revelation 7 that came OUT of the tribulation and were beheaded for His sake.

[Bold Believer]

Daniel prophesied about the Little Horn who made war with the saints for 3.5 years. The Little Horn was Nero. He spoke blasphemies against God (claiming to BE a god), he cursed Christians and persecuted them for 3.5 years. When John speaks in Revelation about the ones in white robes he is referring to those Believers who came out of the Neronian persecution. The tribulation which apostate Israel went through is not the same. Israel's apostate leadership was destroyed and the physical Temple razed. The Neronian persecution died out after he killed himself and the Jewish rebellion came along, and the Roman military and political structure turned to deal with it, giving beleaguered Christians a break.

There is not going to BE another physical Temple. God doesn't live in temples made with hands. WE (Believers) are the temple, both individually and corporately. There have been rumors of another temple being rebuilt since I became a Believer nearly 40 years ago. None of them have ever come to pass. There have been rumors of kohanim (priests) being taught the proper mehod of sacrifice since I became a Believer nearly 40 years ago, but I have yet to see any of these priests or hear anything more than baseless rumors. You can keep spreading these baseless rumors or you can learn to ignore them. One would think that after hearing the 'wolf!' cry often enough, Believers would think a little, but I see that's just not so, woefully.

Acts 7:48-50 states this

"However, the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands, as the prophet says: 'Heaven [is] My throne, And earth [is] My footstool. What house will you build for Me? says the LORD, Or what [is] the place of My rest? Has My hand not made all these things?'

What part of DOES NOT isn't getting through to dispensionalists? Christ rebuilt the temple (himself) in three days. We who believe are IN CHRIST, part of the temple of His body. He is the Chief Cornerstone.

[Bold Believer]

Daniel prophesied about the Little Horn who made war with the saints for 3.5 years. The Little Horn was Nero. He spoke blasphemies against God (claiming to BE a god), he cursed Christians and persecuted them for 3.5 years. When John speaks in Revelation about the ones in white robes he is referring to those Believers who came out of the Neronian persecution. The tribulation which apostate Israel went through is not the same. Israel's apostate leadership was destroyed and the physical Temple razed. The Neronian persecution died out after he killed himself and the Jewish rebellion came along, and the Roman military and political structure turned to deal with it, giving beleaguered Christians a break.

There is not going to BE another physical Temple. God doesn't live in temples made with hands. WE (Believers) are the temple, both individually and corporately. There have been rumors of another temple being rebuilt since I became a Believer nearly 40 years ago. None of them have ever come to pass. There have been rumors of kohanim (priests) being taught the proper mehod of sacrifice since I became a Believer nearly 40 years ago, but I have yet to see any of these priests or hear anything more than baseless rumors. You can keep spreading these baseless rumors or you can learn to ignore them. One would think that after hearing the 'wolf!' cry often enough, Believers would think a little, but I see that's just not so, woefully.

Acts 7:48-50 states this

"However, the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands, as the prophet says: 'Heaven [is] My throne, And earth [is] My footstool. What house will you build for Me? says the LORD, Or what [is] the place of My rest? Has My hand not made all these things?'

What part of DOES NOT isn't getting through to dispensionalists? Christ rebuilt the temple (himself) in three days. We who believe are IN CHRIST, part of the temple of His body. He is the Chief Cornerstone.

There is no scriptural reason to believe your theory where you state those in white robes are only those who were persecuted by Nero.

Jesus defined when the great tribulation began and when it ends in Matt 24. He said it began with the desolation of Israel and will be cut short for the sake of the elect just before the sun/moon darken/stars fall and before the antichrist/false prophet rise up.

Based on Jesus' definition of what the tribulation is, we've been in the tribulation for almost 2000 years which will soon be cut short for the sake of the elect, followed by the time of wrath during which the antichrist and false prophet have their 42 months.

God said through the prophets that He doesn't dwell in temples made with hands while instructing Israel on the plans for the Temples. Ever wonder why?

God is omnipresent. He had them make the temples for a reason. Do you know why?

Furthermore, there are unfulfilled prophecies that speak of a temple, priests, sacrifices, offerings.

Here's one in the millennium:

Zech 14:16And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

20In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

21Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

When you understand why God instructed the temples to be built, then you will understand their purpose. God also gave Israel plans for a future temple that is HUGE in Ezek 40.

As for rumors about a future temple, no, there are actual plans to build a temple on the temple mount. Google "temple institute".

And as far as your snarky comment on "dispensations" goes, read Romans 11. Israel was set aside for a time to allow the gentiles to be grafted in to the Israel of God. Once the "fulness of the gentiles" is come in, all Israel will be saved.

Romans 11:11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

1. My comment was not about dispensations, but dispensationalists. There ARE scriptural dispensations.

2. The WHY was types and shadows. Moses was instructed to build a TABERNACLE, not a TEMPLE. The tabernacle was mobile, the temple restricted worship to a single place. Believers were meant to take the Gospel to the world, not stay in one place. In one sense, the tabernacle is like Christ. He goes where WE go. Mobile, not stationary.

3. Uh, those prophecies are fulfilled in US. WE are a kingdoms of PRIESTS. We offer up spiritual sacrifices to God. (Peter)

4. Jesus stated that the tribulation would occur WHEN the abomination of desolation was standing in the holy place. "For THEN". The thought is being carried down from the previous verses.

5. The temple is BEING rebuilt and WE are it. Only Moschiach can rebuild the temple. Any Orthodox Jew will tell you that. Even if a physical temple WAS built, it would not BE the temple. IT would be just another building and an insult to Christ. Jesus is not going to die again. His sacrifice was ONCE FOR ALL. Either the Jews accept it, or they die like Gentiles, Messiah-less and in their sins.

[JohnD]

The age-old question resurfaces "whose side are you on?"

As I said in previous entries in this thread, all three major camps of Christian eschatology are correct about the one rapture. And that is made possible only because all three camps have been traditionally wrong about the 70th Week of Daniel (interpreting it as one seven-year tribulation period). The book of Daniel and the book of Revelation both divide this seven-year period in two using the words "time, times and half a time" and "forty-two months" and "1260 days." Which all three camps apparently ignored.

When the number of days are charted it puts the rapture in the middle of the 70th Week of Daniel (which is not mid-trib eschatology but mid-70th Week eschatology):

Day 1335 is the day of the rapture.

[JohnD]

First, PLEASE let's not turn this into a debate on whether there will be a Rapture or not. Thanks.

Okay, my question to those that do believe we will be raptured:

Do you think we will be raptured before the Antichrist appears on the scene, or after?

The chart which I previously posted (which is based on scripture including all the scriptures all three camps of eschatology quote to support their beliefs) the beast will be on scene at least 1335 days before the rapture occurs. Before that event, the rapture, the beast will effectively turn humanity against Christianity (the one people on earth who will not take the mark of the beast which is the symbol of one's support of the beast). This is the period spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 10 and Mark 13Matthew 10:21-23 (NKJV)

21 “Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.

22 “And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

23 “When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Revelation 13 (NASB95)

1 And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names.

2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority.

3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast;

4 they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?”

5 There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.

7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.

8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear.

10 If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.

11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon.

12 He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed.

13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men.

14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life.

15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,

17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.

666 will be a tracking device used to track down Christians who refuse the mark. And since no one can buy or sell without it, surviving and hiding and finding food will be a Christian's only objective. And for the few who are not discovered, betrayed or who simply starve until day 1335 (over 3.5 years) into the 70th Week will be raptured out before the Great Tribulation begins in the roughly 3.5 years remaining. So far underground in hiding will surviving Christians be, their sudden disappearance will go unnoticed... in fact, most will probably believe Christians were already entirely exterminated from the earth before that point.

[exrockstar]

Clearly BEFORE. The church is the restrainer that must be removed before Antichrist can appear on scene.

The church will identify the anti-Christ and then the rapture will follow.

No?

[Guest TribulationSaint]

Honestly, I dont understand why this is even a question. I have seen it said that the Church is the restrainer that must be removed to let the anti christ arrive......however the one who holds him back, I believe, is the archangel Micheal. Next how can their be mention of "tribulation Saints" if no believers are left during the Tribulation? These are the believers who are killed by the Anti Christ Government and stand at the side of our Lord Jesus when he returns. The only reason I can see a person might think the rapture is before the tribulation is the quote "believers is not appointed to the wrath of God." BUT! we ARE appointed to the wrath of SATAN!! the rule of the Anti Christ and persecution of believers. But the number one reason believers will not be raptured before the tribulation and persecution is..........IT'S ALREADY HAPPENING!!!!! believers die all around the world just for proclaiming their faith!! If that is not persecution I dont know what is?!

[nChrist]

God determined the Seven Year Tribulation Period against Israel - NOT the Church which is the Body Of Christ. The Church which is the Body of Christ was NOT formed for wrath, rather for Salvation.