Methodist Church: Homosexuality is a Gift, Not a Sin

[Guest man]

So, your point is what? Once again you appear to be asserting the notion that you need perfect understanding to be saved. Is that the case or not?

Not.

This isnt about perfect understanding. This is about taking the Word and twisting it to make it appear what it isnt. Its about taking those twisted words and passing them off as doctrine.

Peter says untaught people twist scriptures to their own destruction. His statement pretty much implies that if youre gonna teach, you better have an understanding of what youre teaching. James, in his Epistle, states that he would prefer that not many of us become teachers because a stricter judgment falls upon those who teach the Word.

When one individual tells another individual, This is what this scripture means, they are teaching. If your interpretation of that passage is wrong, youre teaching an untruth. The biblical definition of someone who teaches lies, is a false teacher. If that person is corrected and he accepts that correction, the title no longer applies. But if he is repeatedly corrected and he refuses to alter his stance, no matter how untaught that individual is, he is still a false teacher and that stricter judgment will fall upon him.

So its not about having a perfect theology or understanding. Its about understanding and teaching the truth. Theres a penalty for teaching lies.

Not everyone is going to get it right and God understands that. Thats why He had James include this in his Epistle.

James 3

1. My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.

Seriously man, do you have perfect understanding and theology? Because if you don't, by your own standard you are doomed.

If that is truly my standard then youre right, I am doomed.

[Guest man]

Well I am done discussing this. Many of these people have shown the unChristian characteristic of judging people to hell, which is a job that belongs to God ALONE.

No one here judging anyone to hell. The truth is being put forth and it is the truth that makes the judgment.

[Smalcald]

If your point JohnDB is to tell us there are other sins in the church besides homosexuality, I agree. If your point is to say that those who are not perfect are not qualified to take a position against sin, I disagree. We are not talking about condemning a specific individual here. We are talking about whether or not homosexuality is a sin? There is no question it is. We are asking whether a church should call sin a gift? I would say absolutely not. Should a church call an overwhelming desire to steal a gift? Should a church call being a sex addict a gift and call on everyone to show tolerance towards adulterers?

Is 5:20

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

Being a sinner does not mean I cannot point out what the bible dictates is sinful. Should we be silent? No

Luke 11:33-36

33 "No one, when he has lit a lamp, puts it in a secret place or under a basket, but on a lampstand, that those who come in may see the light. 34 The lamp of the body is the eye. Therefore, when your eye is good, your whole body also is full of light. But when your eye is bad, your body also is full of darkness. 35 Therefore take heed that the light which is in you is not darkness. 36 If then your whole body is full of light, having no part dark, the whole body will be full of light, as when the bright shining of a lamp gives you light."

NKJV

If they lust after their own genitalia and like kind they have become self worshiped and inward .... you have become an abomination to design and to common sense! There is simply no continuance in man / man... and whoever cannot understand this-> separation from your Creator is all that remains for you! Love Steven

Yes, it represents a drastic shift in understanding from what I believe is the Lord's design. However, let's be careful suggesting that all that remains for those who don't understand this concept is separation from the Lord. I've been debating this very topic in another thread... perfect understanding, scripture, doctrine etc is not required for salvation and we should not judge someone unsaved if they have faith in the Lord.

i agree with you that "perfect understanding, scripture, doctrine etc is not required for salvation and we should not judge someone unsaved if they have faith in the Lord." I would even go further and say that perfect obedience is not necessary for salvation. We are saved by grace through faith, not works.

I have been condemned enough in this topic simply because my beliefs vary from mainstream. I myself am not gay, do not practice homosexual acts, and am actually engaged to be married to a woman. But because my understanding differs, I am condemned to hell? Whatever happened to "Attack the belief, not the person holding the belief"?

Well I am done discussing this. Many of these people have shown the unChristian characteristic of judging people to hell, which is a job that belongs to God ALONE.

Byron,

I hope you stay.

I think personally this topic gets obsessed about on both sides of the debate far too much. Certainly I would not condemn anyone to hell because they would disagree with me or my denomination over scripture. I would however say someone or some group is wrong which in the case of the Episcopal Church USA ordaining sexually active gays, I would say does go against scripture.

The Christian topic of chaste living as CS Lewis pointed out (someone from your tradition); is the least popular virtue. I think it does make us feel better to look outside of ourselves in many cases so we have to separate just being judgmental from pointing out proper doctrine.

[Guest Butero]

If your point JohnDB is to tell us there are other sins in the church besides homosexuality, I agree. If your point is to say that those who are not perfect are not qualified to take a position against sin, I disagree. We are not talking about condemning a specific individual here. We are talking about whether or not homosexuality is a sin? There is no question it is. We are asking whether a church should call sin a gift? I would say absolutely not. Should a church call an overwhelming desire to steal a gift? Should a church call being a sex addict a gift and call on everyone to show tolerance towards adulterers?

Is 5:20

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

Being a sinner does not mean I cannot point out what the bible dictates is sinful. Should we be silent? No

Luke 11:33-36

33 "No one, when he has lit a lamp, puts it in a secret place or under a basket, but on a lampstand, that those who come in may see the light. 34 The lamp of the body is the eye. Therefore, when your eye is good, your whole body also is full of light. But when your eye is bad, your body also is full of darkness. 35 Therefore take heed that the light which is in you is not darkness. 36 If then your whole body is full of light, having no part dark, the whole body will be full of light, as when the bright shining of a lamp gives you light."

NKJV

If they lust after their own genitalia and like kind they have become self worshiped and inward .... you have become an abomination to design and to common sense! There is simply no continuance in man / man... and whoever cannot understand this-> separation from your Creator is all that remains for you! Love Steven

Yes, it represents a drastic shift in understanding from what I believe is the Lord's design. However, let's be careful suggesting that all that remains for those who don't understand this concept is separation from the Lord. I've been debating this very topic in another thread... perfect understanding, scripture, doctrine etc is not required for salvation and we should not judge someone unsaved if they have faith in the Lord.

i agree with you that "perfect understanding, scripture, doctrine etc is not required for salvation and we should not judge someone unsaved if they have faith in the Lord." I would even go further and say that perfect obedience is not necessary for salvation. We are saved by grace through faith, not works.

I have been condemned enough in this topic simply because my beliefs vary from mainstream. I myself am not gay, do not practice homosexual acts, and am actually engaged to be married to a woman. But because my understanding differs, I am condemned to hell? Whatever happened to "Attack the belief, not the person holding the belief"?

Well I am done discussing this. Many of these people have shown the unChristian characteristic of judging people to hell, which is a job that belongs to God ALONE.

Well Byron, I have not done that. I showed you why you are wrong in your interpretation. It makes no logicals sense. Both myself and others have pointed out that sex between two people of the same sex is fornication. I have been waiting on you to respond to those things, and you have not. You simply put out your position, and have shown no ability to defend it. I am making no judgement about whether or not you are saved or lost, and I would appreciate a response. It comes across like you started out in favor of homosexual unions, and tried to come up with scripture to justify it, but that you didn't think things through when you did so.

[JohnD]

If your point JohnDB is to tell us there are other sins in the church besides homosexuality, I agree. If your point is to say that those who are not perfect are not qualified to take a position against sin, I disagree.

Matthew 7:1-5 (KJV)

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother

[~candice~]

So, your point is what? Once again you appear to be asserting the notion that you need perfect understanding to be saved. Is that the case or not? Seriously man, do you have perfect understanding and theology? Because if you don't, by your own standard you are doomed.

People who are trapped within any willful and habitual sexual sin and refuse to change it have only one outcome in store for them. Scripture is just as clear on that part as it is about homosexuality.

But I'm not speaking of willful and habitual sin, rather misinterpretation of scripture. I do not believe that all who misinterpret scripture do so willfully and with a mind to twist the truth and deceive others. My only point is that we must be careful of suggesting that those who misinterpret scripture are unsaved. All of us see in part, dimly, with imperfect understanding.

If the topic were willful and habitual sin, then I would agree with you and man without hesitation.

God bless.

[~candice~]

So, your point is what? Once again you appear to be asserting the notion that you need perfect understanding to be saved. Is that the case or not?

Not.

This isn

[Guest man]

This much I can (almost) agree with (don't fall off your chair now, man ). Do you believe stricter judgment implies condemnation to hell, regardless of whether that is a loss of salvation, or inability to gain salvation in the first place (OSAS is for a different thread)?

2 Peter 2

16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

Look at how Peter describes these people. He calls them "untaught" and "unstable". He points out that their careless handling of the scriptures would lead to their destruction. I don't believe he's talking about a physical destruction because everybody dies, even the righteous. So if he's not talking about physical, he must mean spiritual. What do think it means to be spiritually destroyed?

Read the Epistle of Jude.

When we read about false teachers and prophets, the words used to describe their fate seem to indicate a very unpleasant ending. If I had to describe the Kingdom of Heaven, unpleasant isn't one of the words I would use.

[Smalcald]

I don't know sometimes I think we make too big deal over the gay issue because it is the cause celeb right now in society. They will eventually move on to something else. I remember when my denomination was under the gun to ordain women, our sister denomination did, we held firm that it was against what scripture taught. We didn't make a big deal about it though, didn't have big internal debates or debate those who ordained women. We just didn't do it, and now it is no big deal the secularists are on to something else, this time gays. We still don't ordain women and never will and it is no longer controversial. I just think all we have to do is peacefully follow scripture and as St. Paul tells us to become blameless and harmless in the midst of this crooked and perverse generation, we are to get along as well as we possibly can with the outside world.

It honestly does not bother me that this so called Church endorses fornication as a gift, it would bother me if I was a member of that Church for certain, but we have far more important work to do than to worry about what the world is up too. Scripture told us that there would be many many false teachers and we should not be surprised by this sort of heresy.

[wyguy]

It honestly does not bother me that this so called Church endorses fornication as a gift

Here's the problem with that - these ideas tend to spread to other churches and denominations. Aren't you concerned about your fellow brothers and sisters in the body?