Baptism Thread Spin Off

[tsth]

I also noticed something similar in terms of 2 separate occasions in belief and baptism of the Holy Spirit.  They were not coincidal.  It is in Acts 8:12-16.

In His Love,

Suzanne

Did anybody happen to take a look at the process in those particular passages? Just wondering, because there were 2 separate experiences seemingly.

Did this knowledge also come at that moment or as you began to study? just curious.

This knowledge came after baptism. I was studying the Scriptures beforehand, but the understandings came after baptism. This was just one facet that changed. There were also other gifts as well. But, the understandings were VERY prominent.

In His Love,

Suzanne

This was a topic and reply from my original question about water baptism experiences. But I really wondered if anyone else looked at the passages above and saw 2 distinct occasions here?

What are your thoughts?

I decided to start the question here, as it kept getting bumped off of general discussion, and was really a doctrinal issue/question.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[JesusisGod2]

Hi Suzanne,

One thing I noticed was that not only during this particular incident, but that during the time of the beggining of the church. The Holy Spirit wasnt given to anyone unless an Apostle was present.

This appears to be the reason that they sent for Peter.

If you notice in verse 18 it says that Simon noticed that the Holy Spirit was given through the laying of of hands by the Apostles

Acts 8

18  Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money,

This seems to be a pattern throughout the book of Acts. The true office of an Apostle is in our day vacant from my understanding, save for Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 3

1  Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;

Maybe it had something to do with the start of the church.

What are your thoughts.

[tsth]

Well, not that this answers your question JIG2, but here is what is significant to me.

It makes me think of people receiving the Good News of Jesus Christ as a child, and then as an adult needing to come to true repentance and salvation. I think these are also 2 separate occasions. But, what was significant to me in the verses was this:

Acts 8:4 Therefore those who were scattered went everywhere preaching the word. 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ to them. 6 And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7 For unclean spirits, crying with a loud voice, came out of many who were possessed; and many who were paralyzed and lame were healed. 8 And there was great joy in that city. 9 But there was a certain man called Simon, who previously practiced sorcery in the city and astonished the people of Samaria, claiming that he was someone great, 10 to whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, "This man is the great power of God." 11 And they heeded him because he had astonished them with his sorceries for a long time. 12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. 13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. 18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit." 20 But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! 21 You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity." 24 Then Simon answered and said, "Pray to the Lord for me, that none of the things which you have spoken may come upon me." 25 So when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, they returned to Jerusalem, preaching the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.

It looks to me as though there is an acceptance and receiving of the Word first, and then came the Holy Spirit at a later time, and as you said, it came after prayer from Peter and John, and the laying on of hands. That is what I have often wondered about in my baptism experience as I explained in the other thread. I have wondered if there was a specific person prayinga specific prayer for me at that time, that brought about this distinct occurance at baptism?

Just wondering out loud.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[JesusisGod2]

Interesting, but there was the instance where Peter was preaching and while he was speaking the Holy Spirit was poured out amongst the gentiles in the room.

43  "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

44  While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.

45  All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

46  For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,

47  "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"

48  And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

This happens before water baptism, it is interesting to note that they recieved the Holy spirit just by listening to the gospel.

There are a few really intersting events that happened here, it doesnt say that the Holy Spirit fell on all who were in the room, but the Holy Spirit fell on all who were listening to the message of the gospel.

But it is interesting to note that Peter "ordered" them to be baptised in water, so it is apparently not something to be taken lightly.

And then of course there is the conversion of Paul wher he wasnt even looking for God, as a matter of fact he was an enemy of the cross when He met Christ.

This is the only time wher I can see where an Apostle wasnt present except of course Paul, when one recieved the Holy Spirit. but as I pointed out earlier Jesus was also an Apostle according to Hebrews 3. So maybe I am wrong in that thought.

Acts 9

16  for I will show him how much he must suffer for My name's sake."

17  So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."

18  And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized;

Notice that Paul recieved the Holy Spirit before he was baptised in water.

In any event this is a very interesting topic and I look forward to seeing it build. Water baptism does have a special meaning to God, I believe and I also believe that we experience something we would not otherwise experience if we did not experience water baptism.

There appears to be many fillings of the Spirit and not just that at Pentecost.

Acts 4:31

And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness.

Now this also involved Peter and John who were also filled with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, so it seems to not be just a one time thing but as God wills.

Its also interesting to note that the Apostles had the Holy Spirt before Pentecost.

John 20

22  And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

23  "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

This is really an intersting study.

I believe you experienced a filling of the Spirit at the time of your water baptism as well as God also opened your mind to understand the scriptures. It is God who opens our minds which involves more then intelect. We see an example of this in Luke 24

Luke 24

45  Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

Sound like you had a woderful experience with God at your baptism. I know I was filled with unspeakable joy. God is good.

Thanks for bringing the topic back up, I think I will stay in the background and let others get their views out.

In Jesus

Kevin

[tsth]

I believe you experienced a filling of the Spirit at the time of your water baptism as well as God also opened your mind to understand the scriptures. It is God who opens our minds which involves more then intelect. We see an example of this in Luke 24

QUOTE 

Luke 24

45  Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 

Sound like you had a woderful experience with God at your baptism. I know I was filled with unspeakable joy. God is good.

Thanks for bringing the topic back up, I think I will stay in the background and let others get their views out.

In Jesus

Kevin

Funny you mentioned the above passage, because that's the one that came to mind with my original post and my expressing what I felt happened at baptism. It was that very description. I didn't include it because it was not one that was talking about baptism so I was afraid it would confuse the issue.

I do wonder though, what was it that was different about Peter and John? Why those particular 2? (That may be getting off subject, but it's just something I wondered?) Were they the ones at the tranfiguration? I can't remember?

Well, I do hope you'll continue to share anything that comes to you from the Word, as we may be the only ones continuing with this particular subject.

I hope not though.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[waitingforhim]

There is more there than you know. The Lord not only wants us to be saved, but He wants us to be baptised in the Holy Spirit also. He hasn't changed.

1. Without the special work of the Holy Spirit people would not be deeply convinced of their sinfulness, God's righteousness or the coming judgment. Therefore in communicating the Word of God to others we must depend on the Holy Spirit to convince people of these truths. We may say what the Word says on these issues but it is the Holy Spirit who will do the convicting.

2. He guides us into all truth (John 16:13). If we allow ourselves to be guided by Him, He will indeed show us what the truths from the Bible we need to understand. Being the author of the Bible, He is best qualified to interpret it to us. He will show us many things both directly from the Word but also through other means. What He shows cannot be the mere product of logic and reason, although it is not illogical. We must realise that the Holy Spirit never guides us in any way contrary to the Holy Scriptures. We must not believe every spirit claiming to be from God, but test the spirits according to the standard of the Holy Scriptures.

3. He regenerates (John 3:5,6). When a person turns to Christ for salvation and trusts Christ from the heart, the Holy Spirit is involved. At this time, the Holy Spirit causes the spirit of that person to be made new. (2 Corinthians 5:17). The human spirit, once dead in sin, is regenerated or made new by the power and working of the Holy Spirit. This is what it means to be born of the Spirit.

4. He glorifies Christ (John 16:14). The Holy Spirit always works to bring glory and honour to Jesus Christ. He does not seek His own glory, but the glory of Jesus. He does this by revealing who Jesus is to us and through us so that all may praise Jesus. He makes Jesus real to people, by bringing the resources and reality of Jesus to the people on earth.

5. He reveals Christ to us and in us (John 16:14,15). Jesus said, "He will take of what is mine and declare it to you". It is the Holy Spirit who communicates to our soul the knowledge of who Jesus is and what He is like. At the same time He works to form the nature of Christ in us also. Being filled with the Holy Spirit in our body and soul, our nature is changed into the nature of the Son of God.

6. He is our leader - willing to lead us (Romans 8:14). "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the [mature] sons of God". The word for son here is the word for a mature son. Indeed, the only way to Christian maturity is to be led by the Spirit. It is not following a path determined by ourselves and our understanding of God's laws that will make us mature Christians, but the path in which He, the Spirit, leads us. We need the Spirit to be mature. Maturity is more than knowledge, it is fruit that comes from relationship with the Spirit of God.

7. He sanctifies. The Holy Spirit is given that we might be holy. It is the Holy Spirit who, working together with the word of God in our minds, sanctifies us. This means He sets us apart for God, cleanses us and puts us in order so that we can more truly show forth the love of God and the nature of Jesus. Holiness is the work of the Spirit. It is not a work based on self- effort or "trying harder". Our part is to believe God's word, and to yield to the leadings of the Spirit. It is by the Spirit however that our sanctification is achieved. This process of sanctification occurs mainly in the soul - the mind, the will and the emotions. "Sanctification is possessing the mind of Christ, and all of the mind of Christ." - John Wesley. It happens more or less rapidly depending on how we learn to yield to God, to change our thinking so that it centres on God's love and God's Word, and persist in prayer.

8. He empowers. "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you; and you will be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." (Acts 1:8). The power we receive from Him is power to preach and demonstrate the gospel of the kingdom of God, not in word only, but in power. (1 Corinthians 4:20). Paul said that his message and preaching were not with the persuasive words of human wisdom, but with the demonstration of the SPIRIT and of POWER, that your faith should not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. (1 Corinthians 2:4). There are many kinds of demostrations of the power of the Spirit. They are sometimes unexpected. Certainly the Spirit wants to give us power to heal the sick and cast out demons. (Matthew 10:1; Mark 16:17,18; John 14:12). This power of the Spirit is often referred to as "the anointing". It is the anointing which enables us to do what Christ wants us to do as sons of God. And that is, to destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:8b).

For a born again Christian, the normal path to receiving this power involves at least 3 things.

a. The Baptism (immersion) in the Holy Spirit. (Acts 1:5; John 7:37- 39). This is the normal introduction of the believer into the realm of personally flowing in the power of God.

b. Total dedication to God. Dedication to prayer, dedication to love, dedication to win souls for Christ, dedication to focus on the Word and on the voice of the Spirit. This dedication involves self-denial (usually including fasting - going without food for a time), a constant dedication to humbling oneself, understanding the authority we have as believers, learning to hear the voice of the Spirit, faith and boldness.

c. Brokeness. We realise that our own self-will, selfishness, stupidity and pride are the main reasons for our failures in God. We realise in ourselves (not in Christ, but in ourselves) we are rotten, corrupt and unable to do anything of value. (Romans 7:18; John 15:5b). We therefore learn to surrender quickly to the Spirit's voice, not trusting our own minds, nor caring about our own reputation. When we make mistakes, we receive correction meekly. When we have success, we give all the glory to God.

9. He fills us (Ephesians 5:18). We are commanded to be filled continually with the Spirit. This being filled effects our whole personality, our ministry for Christ, and the focus of our minds. It affects our body also. (Romans 8:11; Luke 11:36).

10. He teaches us to pray (Romans 8:26,27; 1 Corinthians 14:15). The Spirit of God knows what we should pray and how. We don't. That is why we must let Him help us here. One way is through the special prayer language He gives us when we are baptised in the Spirit. Another way is by inspiring our minds with the prayers that get results. Yet another way is through the deep groanings of intercession He produces in us.

11. He tells us that we are children of God (Romans 8:16).

The Holy Spirit is wanting to bring us to the place where all these things are part of our lives.

12. He produces in us the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22,23). As part of our sanctification, the Holy Spirit produces in us love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self- control. These characteristics are formed in us by continual yielding to the Spirit of God.

13. He gives special supernatural gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-10). These gifts are given as the Spirit decides. However, we are not passive in the reception and operation of these gifts. To use the gifts requires faith, boldness and a degree of sensitivity to the Spirit. These gifts are given to help people by the supernnatural wisdom and power of God. They are not the product of the rational mind. Rather they are supernatural operations of the Spirit which occur through those who are open to them. They are useful in evangelism and in every part of Christian ministry. In neglecting them, the church has neglected an important God-ordained means for achieving God's work in the world.

Born of the Spirit, Baptised in the Spirit

Every true Christian is born of the Spirit. As such they have experienced the work of the Holy Spirit in a number of important ways. These ways include but are not limited to: conviction, regeneration and the witness of the Spirit in our lives that we are children of God. However, the dimension of power that God wants for His children can only be reached through the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. It is God's will that every Christian be baptised in the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38,39). Even though some Christians achieve results without the actual baptism in the Holy Spirit, they would achieve more if they yielded to God so as to receive the Baptism in the Spirit. It is possible for a Christian to recognise many aspects of the Holy Spirit's work and enjoy a measure of His blessing in life and ministry, without ever being baptised in the Spirit in the Biblical way.

Some say that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit no longer exists today. Others take another approach and say that EVERY born again Christian was baptised in the Spirit at his conversion. Both kinds of teaching have the effect of robbing believers of something very important that Christ provided for them as part of their necessary inheritance in this life.

We will see from the Bible that the baptism in the Spirit is not the same as regeneration. It is important that we do not allow tradition - even "evangelical tradition" - to take a higher place than the Word of God in our doctrine and in our lives.

Biblical proof that these are Separate Works

Although the Bible does give examples of people who were baptised in the Spirit at the same time as their regeneration, we will see that this is not always what happens. The Book of Acts reveals that repentance, baptism in water and the baptism in the Holy Spirit, although all part of our salvation package, do not necessarily happen in the same order all the time. It is interesting to note that in Acts, where the Baptism in the Spirit happens to believers at the time of their conversion, the Bible puts emphasis on the fact that the apostles knew they were baptised in the Spirit "for they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God" (Acts 10:46; Acts 11:15- 16). We certainly do not believe that speaking in tongues is the proof of being born again. However, we can see that consistently it is the sign accompanying the New Testament Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

It is important to state that every true born again Christian has the Holy Spirit. "Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." (Romans 8:9). The Holy Spirit is given by God "to those who obey Him" (Acts 5:32). To receive Christ is an act of obedience by which the person submits to the work of the cross and becomes a new person (2 Corinthians 5:17).

The Holy Spirit enters our human spirit when we are born again of the Spirit of God (John 3). Jesus comes into us by his Spirit (John 1:12). As we grow in Christ we produce the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22,23).

However, there is an empowering by the Holy Spirit which is distinct from being born of God. We get authority (exousia) to be sons of God at the new birth (John 1:12), but we receive power (dunamis) after the Holy Spirit comes upon us and we are filled with the Holy Spirit. (Acts 1:8)

The apostles received the Holy Spirit in regeneration before the ascension when Jesus breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit." (John 20:22). They were born again of the Spirit through the resurrection of Jesus from the dead (1Peter 1:3) at that time. But this was before the day of Pentecost. Jesus told them later to wait for the Promise of the Father in Jerusalem (Acts 1:4), for the Baptism in the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5) after they had received the Spirit in regeneration. Therefore in the case of the apostles, the Baptism in the Spirit and being born of the Spirit were two separate events. They were born of the Spirit in John 20:22 before the ascension, but were baptised in the Spirit on the day of Pentecost after the ascension. And it is important to note that only then was the promise of Mark 16:17 fulfilled in the lives of the believers then, for beginning at Pentecost "they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." (Acts 2:4).

The Samaritans believed the gospel and were baptized (Acts 8:12). Many were healed and delivered. They were born again through repentance and faith in Christ, but it was obvious to Philip that something was missing in their experience. Under Philip's ministry the believers were not baptised in the Spirit. So later, Peter and John came down that these Samaritan believers might receive the Holy Spirit as they ought to receive Him (Acts 8:14-17). The power which the apostles released was so impressive that Simon the famous magician at that time wanted to buy the ability to release this power. Of course this was an evil and foolish desire. But he wanted to be able to impress people further with the same kind of power he was seeing accompany the reception of the Holy Spirit. The Scripture does not lead us to suppose that the reception of the Holy Spirit was some kind of quiet blessing.

Some point out that no record is made of speaking in tongues in this Biblical account. That doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Some early church writers said it did. But what we should learn from this account is that no matter how wonderful our salvation experience of turning to the Lord was, we should not be satisfied with that, but we should go on in God until we receive the Spirit in mighty demonstration and power.

Further proof that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit does not always or even usually occur at the moment of repentance and faith can be seen in the life of Paul (formerly Saul). Saul met Jesus on the road to Damascus and confessed Him as Lord, which meant he was converted (Acts 9:3-8; Rom. 10:9). But God knew that was not all that Paul needed, Three days later, God had Ananias lay hands on Saul so that he would receive his sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17). But did Paul speak in tongues then? Let Paul himself speak here. In writing to the Corinthians he said "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all." (1 Corinthians 14:18). Not so much in church, of course, but outside the meetings in private so as to build himself up. In this way, his preaching was both understadable and powerful (1 Corinthians 14:19; 2:1-4).

Cornelius' household and close friends were baptised in the Spirit at the moment of their conversion. How did Peter know this? "For he heard them speak with tongues and magnify God." (Acts 10:46). These people received the Holy Spirit just as the apostles (Acts 10:47). Peter realised that they were not only born again, but also baptised in the Holy Spirit, at that time (Acts 11:15,16). Why? "For they heard them speak with tongues and magnifying God" (Acts 10:46). That settled the issue for Peter. In the Bible, the speaking in unknown tongues is a Biblical sign of the true New Testament baptism in the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:4, Acts 19:6, Mark 16:17). Let us remember that God did not trust the writing of the New Testament to anyone who did not speak in tongues. And people who despise tongues because their churches don't believe in it make the same kind of mistake as those in formal traditionalistic churches who reject the idea of regeneration by the Spirit at the moment of repentance and faith because it contradicts the long-held dogmas of the church. The Bible must settle the issue - not our traditions, theologies and lack of experience. And the Bible says, "Desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues." (1 Corinthians 14:39).

The Ephesian believers in Acts 19 were not true Christians in the full sense of the word when Paul met them. They only knew the John's baptism of repentance. They did not even know there was given a Holy Spirit. After Paul explained to them about Jesus "they were baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. And when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied." (Acts 19:5,6). Here we see that Paul was interested in these disciples' relationship with the Holy Spirit. He showed them their need to be baptised in water and the Holy Spirit. Once again, speaking in tongues is revealed to have accompanied this initial outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon the believers.

To add to the testimony of the Scriptures, there are, scattered throughout church history, and especially in this 20th century, there are many thousands and now tens of millions of people who have testified to having received this power from God some time after their initial conversion to Christ.

In summary then, the Scripture shows that being born of God is not always happening at the same time as being baptised in the Spirit. The Scripture further shows that it is always desirable and God's will for people to be filled with the Holy Spirit in such a way as to be clothed with the power of God and to speak with other tongues. (Ephesians 5:18; 1 Corinthians 14:5a). All this and much more is promised to the believer who earnestly seeks a relationship of submission to the Word of God and to the Holy Spirit.

Purpose of the Baptism in the Spirit

The purpose of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is manifold. He is poured out so that all the 13 works and purposes of the Holy Spirit mentioned above might be . The Holy Spirit of course will be wanting to do these things in every believer, not just those actually baptised in the Spirit. But these things are much more easily and naturally realised in those who have been baptised in the Spirit and speak in tongues. To achieve His purposes in the believer's life, the Holy Spirit usually requires the voluntary submission of the believer. We must trust God's Spirit to lead us in our battle with the world, the flesh and the devil.

In short, the purpose of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is that men and women will become not only children of God, but children of God like Jesus the Son of God in nature, holiness and power. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit gives us the same possibilities of relationship to the Father and power ministry as Jesus had in His earthly ministry. God wants us to move into these possibilities. The Scriptures make this intention of God clear to us in Scriptures such as John 14:12 and John 17:22. God does not expect us to do the works of Jesus and to be holy as He is holy without having available to us the same measure of the Holy Spirit as Jesus had. But like Jesus, we need to be completely dependent as submissive to the Holy Spirit if we want His purposes in and through us to be fully accomplished. For the baptism in the Spirit is no substitute for the day-by-day choices the believer must make to keep submitting to the revealed will of God.

The main purpose of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit in this life then is to give us more power to demonstrate Christ and win people to Him, so that they can be saved. (Acts 1:8). All other things being equal, the believer baptised in the Spirit will have more success in preaching the gospel, because the Holy Spirit is freer to work through him. The Holy Spirit has many ways to convince people. The Holy Spirit gives us power to heal the sick and cast out demons (Mark 16:17,18) so that people can see and know that Jesus is alive and that his salvation is real and makes a difference. It is much easier to lead people to Christ after they have been healed through Christ's power by the laying on of hands of the Spirit-filled believer, for example. With the Holy Spirit working through many believers, there are actually greater possibilities for the effective proclamation of the gospel of the Kingdom that there were in the days of Jesus' earthly ministry. The Baptism in the Spirit therefore is an essential ingredient in the plan of God to multiply Jesus' earthly ministry of preaching, healing and casting out demons so that He can touch the whole world with its billions of people.

Speaking in tongues - What, Why, When?

[JesusisGod2]

Hello waiting for Him,

Great stuff you have posted from what I read, and I read most of it, however, it is a tad bit long , now this isnt a bad thing!

Except you will lose a few readers, to what you are trying to get across because of the lenght and of course the computer screens brightness. Sometimes it is better to even put it into two post :sweating: Just some friendly advice.

I must say that I haven't read anything that you said that I disagreed with and I will read the rest tonight.

In Jesus

Kevin