Prefall Death

[Don Fanucci]

I was doing an experiment this week in which I was looking at cell death and was reminded of some of the creationist positions regarding the genome and death after the fall. The "degradation of the genome" argument does not make sense to me because it is not supported by scripture. In fact, it is pretty clear that scripture incorporates death prior to sin does it not? While some could die from non natural causes (ie, accidents), old age must have occurred, which would mean that, for lack of a better word, human genomes were not "perfect" as some would die of old age--they'd just wear out, just as happens to some (the lucky ones!) today.

[~candice~]

How do you deal with this?

Ro 5

Rom 5:12 Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as all sinned:

Rom 5:13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Rom 5:14 But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is the type of Him who was to come;

Rom 5:15 but the free gift shall not be also like the offense. For if by the offense of the one many died, much more the grace of God, and the gift in grace; which is of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.

Rom 5:16 And the free gift shall not be as by one having sinned; (for indeed the judgment was of one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses to justification.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offense death reigned by one, much more they who receive abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by One, Jesus Christ.)

[Don Fanucci]

How do you deal with this?

Ro 5

Rom 5:12 Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as all sinned:

Rom 5:13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Rom 5:14 But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is the type of Him who was to come;

Rom 5:15 but the free gift shall not be also like the offense. For if by the offense of the one many died, much more the grace of God, and the gift in grace; which is of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.

Rom 5:16 And the free gift shall not be as by one having sinned; (for indeed the judgment was of one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses to justification.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offense death reigned by one, much more they who receive abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by One, Jesus Christ.)

After the fall we are dead in our sins (spiritually) and also die physically. Prefall, before the introduction of sin, there was only physical death. Do you agree?

[OneLight]

I can not find in scripture where anything dies before the fall. Can you show me where it is?

[Don Fanucci]

I can not find in scripture where anything dies before the fall. Can you show me where it is?

Gen 1: 20 And God said,

[OneLight]

I can not find in scripture where anything dies before the fall. Can you show me where it is?

Gen 1: 20 And God said,

[Don Fanucci]

I can not find in scripture where anything dies before the fall. Can you show me where it is?

Gen 1: 20 And God said,

[OneLight]

I can not find in scripture where anything dies before the fall. Can you show me where it is?

Gen 1: 20 And God said,

[Guest shiloh357]

There was no death prior to the fall. All animals and humans were created to be vegitarians. We do not find ANY physical or spiritual death prior to the sin of Adam. The fall in garden effected the entire world, not only man. Paul in Romans 5 deals with the impact it had on man because He was making a theological and didactic point. Romans 5 cannot be used to make the assertion that the effects of the fall were only limited to mankind. God told Adam that even the ground was cursed for his sake and that is when it would be difficult for man to get it grow edible vegitation.

God did not engineer death into creation. How do we know this?? Because the Bible tells what life will be like after sin is eradicated from the universe. According to Scripture, there will be no more sickness, pain, sorrow, no more curse and no more death. There will be no more twisted and deformed bodies, no more physical disabilities, no more disease. There will no more predators in the animal kingdom.

The world will be restored to its conditions prior to the fall of man. The obedience of Christ (the Last Adam) will reverse the curse of the first Adam.

Edited May 21, 2011 by shiloh357

[LuftWaffle]

So are you saying that it is unreasonable to follow the passage to its logical conclusion--that there is some check on multiplying fruitfully? Sorry to see you bow out, but I certainly hope a bunch of people don't join the thread and call you names because you have decided to move on, as seems to be the norm here.

Don, it seems that your argument is that if things multiply without limits the world will run out of space. I think it's a fair point, a check of some sort is needed, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there must have been death, since death isn't the only way to curb population growth. Infertility would be another option, especially when one looks at the role God plays in terms of fertility of the land, animals and people throughout scripture.

I once saw a study on TV with rats, where scientists created optimal conditions for the rats and they multiplied rapidly up to a point where overcrowding became an issue and then the whole population stopped mating.

One sees a similar trend in humans. Families living in densely populated areas have less children than families living in rural areas, though there might be other factors for this.

So instead of using death to balance out the births, God could easily have a check built in whereby births slow-down or stop once population levels reach a certain size, remember God actively maintained the garden of Eden.

Furthermore, God being omniscient would have known the fall would happen and that overpopulation wouldn't be a problem on this earth. So the garden of Eden wouldn't have needed to be eternally sustainable, but only long enough to serve God's divine plan.

I also agree with Shiloh that the Genesis has theological implications looking ahead. If the fall was only spiritual, then one has to ask why Jesus had to die physically to reverse the curse? Couldn't He just suffer a spiritual death for us?

Likewise the promise of everlasting life, sealed with His resurrection, is that merely in a spiritual sense, or will our glorified bodies literally live forever? The Bible seems clear that we will have real physical bodies in heaven and these bodies will not die. It is appointed for a man to die once.

Edited May 21, 2011 by LuftWaffle