RIGHTEOUSNESS WITHOUT WORKS?

[Guest]

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:27-28

RIGHTEOUSNESS WITHOUT WORKS

http://www.ccel.org/.../romans.iv.html

If God announces the gift of righteousness apart from works, why do you keep mourning over your bad works, your failures? Do you not see that it is because you still have hopes in these works of yours that you are depressed and discouraged by their failure? If you truly saw and believed that God is reckoning righteous the ungodly who believe on Him, you would fairly hate your struggles to be "better"; for you would see that your dreams of good works have not at all commended you to God, and that your bad works do not at all hinder you from believing on Him, - that justifieth the ungodly!

Therefore, on seeing your failures, you should say, I am nothing but a failure; but God is dealing with me on another principle altogether than my works, good or bad - a principle not involving my works, but based only on the work of Christ for me ... God, in justifying me, acted wholly and only on Christ's blood-shedding on my behalf.

-- William R. Newell (1868-1956), pastor, assistant superintendent of Moody Bible Institute, and writer of the beloved hymn "At Calvary."

[wyguy]

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Fez]

Joe am I missing a point here?

Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,

Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?

Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Jas 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder!

Jas 2:20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?

Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;

Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"--and he was called a friend of God.

Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Am I confusing deeds of the law and works here?

[nebula]

Think of it this way, Fez -

There are two sides to pride. One is the arrogant side (the one we recognize as pride) and the other is the insecure side (the center is still "I" - this is the type of pride that led to King Saul's downfall).

When dealing with pride, one does not use the same approach to one as with the other.

So when it comes to works, there are two camps -

Those that think of grace as a cheap pass to not deal with their actions in godly manners (what you are addressing).

And those who still strive to be righteous on their own merit (what Joe is addressing).

It's like a pendulum swing - these are two extremes that need to be centered. Joe is addressing the pendulum swung over one way, you are addressing the pendulum swung the other way.

Does that make sense?

[Fez]

Think of it this way, Fez -

There are two sides to pride. One is the arrogant side (the one we recognize as pride) and the other is the insecure side (the center is still "I" - this is the type of pride that led to King Saul's downfall).

When dealing with pride, one does not use the same approach to one as with the other.

So when it comes to works, there are two camps -

Those that think of grace as a cheap pass to not deal with their actions in godly manners (what you are addressing).

And those who still strive to be righteous on their own merit (what Joe is addressing).

It's like a pendulum swing - these are two extremes that need to be centered. Joe is addressing the pendulum swung over one way, you are addressing the pendulum swung the other way.

Does that make sense?

Yep it does. James says be "doers" of the word and that is what I was getting at.

Luther also said "Man is justified by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone"

So I guess we are in agreement.

[Guest]

Think of it this way, Fez -

There are two sides to pride. One is the arrogant side (the one we recognize as pride) and the other is the insecure side (the center is still "I" - this is the type of pride that led to King Saul's downfall).

When dealing with pride, one does not use the same approach to one as with the other.

So when it comes to works, there are two camps -

Those that think of grace as a cheap pass to not deal with their actions in godly manners (what you are addressing).

And those who still strive to be righteous on their own merit (what Joe is addressing).

It's like a pendulum swing - these are two extremes that need to be centered. Joe is addressing the pendulum swung over one way, you are addressing the pendulum swung the other way.

Does that make sense?

Yep it does. James says be "doers" of the word and that is what I was getting at.

Luther also said "Man is justified by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone"

So I guess we are in agreement.

Give God The Glory Glory Glory

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Philippians 2:13

[cooterhein]

Joe am I missing a point here?

Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,

Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?

Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Jas 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder!

Jas 2:20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?

Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;

Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"--and he was called a friend of God.

Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Am I confusing deeds of the law and works here?

This is a thread that I started on a Catholic forum awhile back. (Before I was suspended this month, lol). http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=516624

I got exactly one response from another non-Catholic. James 2 is usually a really popular passage on Catholic forums because it gives them an opportunity to show Protestants the error of their ways, but something that includes side-by-side interpretations of the other passages that unpack Abraham along with an analysis of the semantic range of "justified"....I guess no one there wanted to interact with that. Maybe you'd like to, though.

Some of what was quoted in the OP did sound a tad antinominan, so I would probably come back with Bible passages that include lots of "may genoita"....but that's me. Justification is certainly relevant to this topic, but I don't think James 2 is talking about justification in the sense that a man's works render him righteous (or such as he ought to be) or declare/pronounce him to be righteous (or such as he ought to be). Semantic domains are courtesy of BDAG, btw. Rather, Abraham is unpacked in James 2 in such a way that a person is shown/exhibited/evinced to be righteous by his works, working together with his faith in order to show it off.

Now, that actually is fairly relevant to the OP, since the guy initially quoted doesn't seem to think these kinds of things matter at all. I think a three-part comparison of the NT passages relevant to Abraham demonstrates that his works did not render him righteous, nor did God pronounce him righteous on the basis of his works, but they aren't completely meaningless as James 2 demonstrates. James does express frustration at people who say these kinds of works don't matter at all, and I think the quote in the OP does demonstrate that kind of attitude to a certain extent. As it turns out, though, works matter....but not because they render you righteous or encourage God to pronounce you righteous, but because they demonstrate your righteousness. They exhibit it. This is one way in which "justify" (dih-kai-ah-oh) can be used. It's a less-traveled path as far as its semantic domains go, but this is one time when it goes there. It's not the first one you'd normally pick, but once you do the side-by-side with the other passages (Galatians 4 and Romans 3) that also unpack Abraham, it becomes clear that you have to go there in order to keep things consistent and avoid a contradiction of terms.

Again though, with regard to the OP, works do matter and that's why. I think James would be frustrated with the guy. Newell. I like the guy, I know I've looked him up in the past and used some of his material in ways that were favorable to him. But I do think he gets a little bit antinomian here.

Edited August 27, 2011 by cooterhein

[Ginger5]

Our faith is a good conscience which is over our mistakes. If we intend to please God and do the right thing, and we know that, then our outward mistakes cannot compare with that, we have confidence before God. But if we don't remember that, we cannot fight for our faith. Faith plus actions is what I believe, but the actions are not perfect, its the intent of them before God. I see "fatih" as with actons, but it is not status accomplishments. Status accomplishments have to do with boasting. Faith in God is a grace and the actions are also a grace with them, but outward results are going to vary with people. I think God looks at the heart of a person from what the bible says.

[madmaggie]

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:27-28

RIGHTEOUSNESS WITHOUT WORKS

http://www.ccel.org/.../romans.iv.html

If God announces the gift of righteousness apart from works, why do you keep mourning over your bad works, your failures? Do you not see that it is because you still have hopes in these works of yours that you are depressed and discouraged by their failure? If you truly saw and believed that God is reckoning righteous the ungodly who believe on Him, you would fairly hate your struggles to be "better"; for you would see that your dreams of good works have not at all commended you to God, and that your bad works do not at all hinder you from believing on Him, - that justifieth the ungodly!

Therefore, on seeing your failures, you should say, I am nothing but a failure; but God is dealing with me on another principle altogether than my works, good or bad - a principle not involving my works, but based only on the work of Christ for me ... God, in justifying me, acted wholly and only on Christ's blood-shedding on my behalf.

-- William R. Newell (1868-1956), pastor, assistant superintendent of Moody Bible Institute, and writer of the beloved hymn "At Calvary."

[Ginger5]

Joe am I missing a point here?

Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,

Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?

Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Jas 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder!

Jas 2:20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?

Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;

Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"--and he was called a friend of God.

Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Am I confusing deeds of the law and works here?

This is a thread that I started on a Catholic forum awhile back. (Before I was suspended this month, lol). http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=516624

I got exactly one response from another non-Catholic. James 2 is usually a really popular passage on Catholic forums because it gives them an opportunity to show Protestants the error of their ways, but something that includes side-by-side interpretations of the other passages that unpack Abraham along with an analysis of the semantic range of "justified"....I guess no one there wanted to interact with that. Maybe you'd like to, though.

Some of what was quoted in the OP did sound a tad antinominan, so I would probably come back with Bible passages that include lots of "may genoita"....but that's me. Justification is certainly relevant to this topic, but I don't think James 2 is talking about justification in the sense that a man's works render him righteous (or such as he ought to be) or declare/pronounce him to be righteous (or such as he ought to be). Semantic domains are courtesy of BDAG, btw. Rather, Abraham is unpacked in James 2 in such a way that a person is shown/exhibited/evinced to be righteous by his works, working together with his faith in order to show it off.

Now, that actually is fairly relevant to the OP, since the guy initially quoted doesn't seem to think these kinds of things matter at all. I think a three-part comparison of the NT passages relevant to Abraham demonstrates that his works did not render him righteous, nor did God pronounce him righteous on the basis of his works, but they aren't completely meaningless as James 2 demonstrates. James does express frustration at people who say these kinds of works don't matter at all, and I think the quote in the OP does demonstrate that kind of attitude to a certain extent. As it turns out, though, works matter....but not because they render you righteous or encourage God to pronounce you righteous, but because they demonstrate your righteousness. They exhibit it. This is one way in which "justify" (dih-kai-ah-oh) can be used. It's a less-traveled path as far as its semantic domains go, but this is one time when it goes there. It's not the first one you'd normally pick, but once you do the side-by-side with the other passages (Galatians 4 and Romans 3) that also unpack Abraham, it becomes clear that you have to go there in order to keep things consistent and avoid a contradiction of terms.

Again though, with regard to the OP, works do matter and that's why. I think James would be frustrated with the guy. Newell. I like the guy, I know I've looked him up in the past and used some of his material in ways that were favorable to him. But I do think he gets a little bit antinomian here.

This might help:

"Justification" is vindication of that which is maintained to be true. In this case, it applies to two things being maintained as true.

1) Paul maintaines that believers in Jesus Christ are guiltless (righteous) before God, which is justified (its truth is vindicated) by their faith in Jesus' sacrificial atonement for the sin of those who believe in him.

Through grace, sinners are justified (as righteous) by faith in Jesus Christ, and his atoning work on the cross (Ro 3:25).

2) James maintains that saving faith, as distinct from counterfeit faith, is justified (its truth is vindicated) by obedience to Jesus' commands (works).

Faith is justified (shown to be true) by its works.

"Justification" means to vindicate their truth.

I agree with this. There is "works" "actions/obedience". Works is used in the sense of Jewish law works which does not save, actions means obedience. When we came to Christ, the first thing was "repent" which is actions to be saved. Yet we cannot do everything perfect, nor do enough, so it is by faith also. It is often taught in a confusing way, and once understood, how to apply it is a lifelong thing.