Guest Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 To further complicate a reasonably trivial matter in the greater scheme of things... Lets talk predestination... God knew exactly what would happen when He created Adam and Eve. Was it His plan? Or did He do it knowing that Adan and Eve would fall of their own choice anyway? Or do they mean the same thing? All I Know Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:20 Is Jesus Saves For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Hebrews 9:26 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botz Posted June 8, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,492 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 191 Days Won: 18 Joined: 03/29/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted June 8, 2011 I've kinda lost interest in these kind of speculations. I am NOT denying others the right to toss these ideas around, but the more certain I became in the bible being God's Holy and inspired Word, the less these things have grabbed my interest. Is it just me or is this common? I used to be fascinated by this stuff. Personally, I have found that G-d gives me as a Believer what I call a sanctified imagination, and there are times when reading the Scriptures that I allow my mind to wander down every possible avenue, not because I am looking for the unusual or seek stimulation from the unknowable aspects of some narrative, but because I enjoy the experience, the detective work and touching on possibilities that I had not covered before and actually help me grasp His truths more tightly and with a wider understanding....I very much base this kind of 'exploration' on the Jewish techniques of dissecting each word, even each letter, like squeezing a lemon....to see if there is something further to be gained and to be blessed with....again it is a learning process and based on my personal walk with Him. As with everything we have to use wisdom in how we approach things, we are all different, and what suits one will not suit another, this is especially true in each individuals approach to reading Scripture, and yet G-d speaks to each of us on a highly personal level irrespective of our own techniques or leanings...the important thing is to be led by the Spirit, to hear Him and to obey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botz Posted June 8, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,492 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 191 Days Won: 18 Joined: 03/29/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted June 8, 2011 To further complicate a reasonably trivial matter in the greater scheme of things... Lol...why stop now Lets talk predestination... God knew exactly what would happen when He created Adam and Eve. Was it His plan? Or did He do it knowing that Adan and Eve would fall of their own choice anyway? Or do they mean the same thing? I don't believe anything has ever taken G-d by surprise, He is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last..He knows the end from the beginning and I believe laughs at some of our attempts to suss Him out. I believe every individual ever created has been precious to Him and that He loved Adam and Eve with His whole heart, knowing that through them and their disobedience He would eventually in the fulness of time restore what was broken to all who received Him. I have often thought about the heart of G-d and how in creating us He caused Himself a combination of such grief and such joy....no wonder the testing of our faith is so precious to Him and why He seeks out those that love and obey Him. To answer the question....I think their choice was His plan. G-d often works through our sins, faults and weaknesses to accomplish what He had always purposed....don't ask me how this all pans out, I haven't a clue, but I see it again and again in the lives of those recorded in Scripture. Now whether G-d makes some adjustments and allowances along the way, associated with prayer (see Moses pleading for the Israelites)...it is quite possible, but then He knows the heart of man and what will come out of it, what will touch Him and what will persuade Him (see parable of unjust judge). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~candice~ Posted June 8, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 955 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 11,318 Content Per Day: 1.89 Reputation: 448 Days Won: 33 Joined: 12/16/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted June 8, 2011 I've kinda lost interest in these kind of speculations. I am NOT denying others the right to toss these ideas around, but the more certain I became in the bible being God's Holy and inspired Word, the less these things have grabbed my interest. Is it just me or is this common? I used to be fascinated by this stuff. Personally, I have found that G-d gives me as a Believer what I call a sanctified imagination, and there are times when reading the Scriptures that I allow my mind to wander down every possible avenue, not because I am looking for the unusual or seek stimulation from the unknowable aspects of some narrative, but because I enjoy the experience, the detective work and touching on possibilities that I had not covered before and actually help me grasp His truths more tightly and with a wider understanding....I very much base this kind of 'exploration' on the Jewish techniques of dissecting each word, even each letter, like squeezing a lemon....to see if there is something further to be gained and to be blessed with....again it is a learning process and based on my personal walk with Him. As with everything we have to use wisdom in how we approach things, we are all different, and what suits one will not suit another, this is especially true in each individuals approach to reading Scripture, and yet G-d speaks to each of us on a highly personal level irrespective of our own techniques or leanings...the important thing is to be led by the Spirit, to hear Him and to obey. I 'get' this. Sometimes I go off tangent to investigate something to see if it is a camel or a gnat. Often it's just a gnat but the occasional camel makes exploration worth it. I have just lost interest in the free will and creation nuance speculations in particular, maybe because they tripped me up once in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~candice~ Posted June 8, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 955 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 11,318 Content Per Day: 1.89 Reputation: 448 Days Won: 33 Joined: 12/16/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted June 8, 2011 To answer the question....I think their choice was His plan. And I'm going to contradict my last post by commenting again . I think it is His will that man have and exercise his own free will, and that God fully knows in advance what these free will decisions will be. I don't subscribe to molinism (that God chose to create a world where His will and man's free will choices perfectly align), but rather to the 2-wills view, that God has a decretive and permissive will. It is His decretive will that man be saved and not sin, and it is His permissive will that allows man's free will sins to bear their stinkin' fruit. Clear as the mud Adam was made from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted June 8, 2011 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 599 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,260 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,988 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted June 8, 2011 To answer the question....I think their choice was His plan. And I'm going to contradict my last post by commenting again . I think it is His will that man have and exercise his own free will, and that God fully knows in advance what these free will decisions will be. I don't subscribe to molinism (that God chose to create a world where His will and man's free will choices perfectly align), but rather to the 2-wills view, that God has a decretive and permissive will. It is His decretive will that man be saved and not sin, and it is His permissive will that allows man's free will sins to bear their stinkin' fruit. Clear as the mud Adam was made from? God lives outside "space/time" that we are stuck in within a time flow mode. When you say that God knows in advance the decision you will make, I believe he can actually see us make them. It tends to make bad decisions that we make some sort of Gods plan because he tells us what we are going to do, when the decision is truly just our own responsibility and not really His plan. I do believe though that He intended for us to eat of the tree. I do however find it hard to fault either Adam or Eve for they did not know right from wrong at the time....... Satan instigated that first sin, and he is very alive and well today promoting sin in the world today....... difference in then and now is that we do, or at least are capable of, knowing right from wrong. It should give us an advantage over Eve or even Adam...... but it doesn't. As long as Satan is allowed to run amuck, the world will suffer for it's become/becoming as corrupt as him, just as it did prior to the flood. Jesus told us that things would be just as they were before the flood, and it looks to me like we're getting on down that road. Well, it's time to go to Memphis Later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~candice~ Posted June 8, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 955 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 11,318 Content Per Day: 1.89 Reputation: 448 Days Won: 33 Joined: 12/16/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted June 8, 2011 Sam, I don't think God prescribes our actions, we act of our own free will and are wholly responsible for them. I just think it was His will that man have and exercise his own free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted June 8, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted June 8, 2011 I do believe though that He intended for us to eat of the tree. I do however find it hard to fault either Adam or Eve for they did not know right from wrong at the time....... I can't put my finger on it, but I cannot accept this theory of yours. But it seems to imply God tempted them, which goes against what Scripture teaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~candice~ Posted June 8, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 955 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 11,318 Content Per Day: 1.89 Reputation: 448 Days Won: 33 Joined: 12/16/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted June 8, 2011 I do believe though that He intended for us to eat of the tree. I do however find it hard to fault either Adam or Eve for they did not know right from wrong at the time....... I can't put my finger on it, but I cannot accept this theory of yours. But it seems to imply God tempted them, which goes against what Scripture teaches. It implies they didn't understand God when He said "no". If they didn't understand His command, then why would He say it? It kinda becomes meaningless. They knew that He was God, Eve even repeated His command to the serpent. God said no, and He meant it, and they understood it, but they fell to the guile of the serpent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted June 8, 2011 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 599 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,260 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,988 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted June 8, 2011 Sam, I don't think God prescribes our actions, we act of our own free will and are wholly responsible for them. I just think it was His will that man have and exercise his own free will. Actually I believe it's crutial to what he seems to be doing for us to exercise our own free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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