Dr Thomas Ice - Imminency and the Any -Moment Rapture

[back2thebible]

My point being, the Pre-Trib Rapture was known long before Darby or MacDonald. It isn't a "recent invention," as many claim.

It won't be an issue until the antichrist arises, then you will see the results of this false doctrine............you more than likely will not fall for the false messiah, as you seem to read your bible quite regularly, but there are millions who never even crack the cover, and just take everything by word of mouth, they have been told endlessly Jesus comes before the antichrist...........they will more than likely follow the antichrist, believing he is the christ

[rollinTHUNDER]

My point being, the Pre-Trib Rapture was known long before Darby or MacDonald. It isn't a "recent invention," as many claim.

It's not important when men believe it will happen. What's important is being ready when it does happen.

[rollinTHUNDER]

Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

People say and believe lots of things, but without scriptural backing, their words are null and void.

[angels4u]

My point being, the Pre-Trib Rapture was known long before Darby or MacDonald. It isn't a "recent invention," as many claim.

It's not important when men believe it will happen. What's important is being ready when it does happen.

Pre -trip------ mid-trip.........I like to be ready at all times:)

[Guest]

]Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

One post-trib author offered a reward to anyone who could find a quote that predated MacDonald. He had to quickly cough up the money when someone identified a scholar who wrote about the pre-trib rapture several years before MacDonald. As of late, dozens of examples have been found, and the literary surface has hardly been scratched.

My point being, the Pre-Trib Rapture was known long before Darby or MacDonald. It isn't a "recent invention," as many claim.

And the point is valid, sort of. Fact is, that at the time pre-tribism was starting in the Irving, Nelson, Darby camps, and spreading later due to the influence of the Schofield Reference Bible, it was basically a new idea, because any earlier notionof a pretrib rapture had been forgotten. So,in the ensueing over 150 years, there were no known cases of a pre-trib rapture before DArby et al. Now there are what two? (not dozens), unless you actually know of some of these 'dozens' where the quotes are not taken out of context and made to look like pre-trib. Prior to the discovery of Margaret Macdonald's account in the late 20th Century, the pre-trib camp had to admit that she really existed (they claimed she was fiction). So now the shoe is on the other foot a bit, but just a little. As Steve pointed out, the early church (not to mention Jesus, John, Peter, and Paul in my opinion) were historic premilenialists (post-tribbers). Even Polycarp (disciple of John who wrote the book of Revelation) spoke of the church to be in the tribulation, if our documents are accurate.

All this history of who believed what and when, is not very important though, other than to say that maybe one should be cautious about embracing Johnny come lately doctrines.

What are we repeatedly warned about in the Bible? Deception.

1 Remember this! In the last days there will be many troubles, 2 because people will love themselves, love money, brag, and be proud. They will say evil things against others and will not obey their parents or be thankful or be the kind of people God wants. 3 They will not love others, will refuse to forgive, will gossip, and will not control themselves. They will be cruel, will hate what is good, 4 will turn against their friends, and will do foolish things without thinking. They will be conceited, will love pleasure instead of God, 5 and will act as if they serve God but will not have his power. Stay away from those people. 6 Some of them go into homes and get control of silly women who are full of sin and are led by many evil desires. 7 These women are always learning new teachings, but they are never able to understand the truth fully.

2Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness^a is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

et cetera

What is important, is to get into the word, empty our minds of preconceived notions that we hear on tv, radio, books and even the pulpit. We need to look at the Bible, shedding our dispensational glasses and other thing that guide us into a way of thinking other than the plain meaning of bible passages. I did, and it was not easy, it was a lot of work, and I still search the scriptures daily, to confirm or refute what I believe.

[back2thebible]

]Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

One post-trib author offered a reward to anyone who could find a quote that predated MacDonald. He had to quickly cough up the money when someone identified a scholar who wrote about the pre-trib rapture several years before MacDonald. As of late, dozens of examples have been found, and the literary surface has hardly been scratched.

My point being, the Pre-Trib Rapture was known long before Darby or MacDonald. It isn't a "recent invention," as many claim.

And the point is valid, sort of. Fact is, that at the time pre-tribism was starting in the Irving, Nelson, Darby camps, and spreading later due to the influence of the Schofield Reference Bible, it was basically a new idea, because any earlier notionof a pretrib rapture had been forgotten. So,in the ensueing over 150 years, there were no known cases of a pre-trib rapture before DArby et al. Now there are what two? (not dozens), unless you actually know of some of these 'dozens' where the quotes are not taken out of context and made to look like pre-trib. Prior to the discovery of Margaret Macdonald's account in the late 20th Century, the pre-trib camp had to admit that she really existed (they claimed she was fiction). So now the shoe is on the other foot a bit, but just a little. As Steve pointed out, the early church (not to mention Jesus, John, Peter, and Paul in my opinion) were historic premilenialists (post-tribbers). Even Polycarp (disciple of John who wrote the book of Revelation) spoke of the church to be in the tribulation, if our documents are accurate.

All this history of who believed what and when, is not very important though, other than to say that maybe one should be cautious about embracing Johnny come lately doctrines.

What are we repeatedly warned about in the Bible? Deception.

1 Remember this! In the last days there will be many troubles, 2 because people will love themselves, love money, brag, and be proud. They will say evil things against others and will not obey their parents or be thankful or be the kind of people God wants. 3 They will not love others, will refuse to forgive, will gossip, and will not control themselves. They will be cruel, will hate what is good, 4 will turn against their friends, and will do foolish things without thinking. They will be conceited, will love pleasure instead of God, 5 and will act as if they serve God but will not have his power. Stay away from those people. 6 Some of them go into homes and get control of silly women who are full of sin and are led by many evil desires. 7 These women are always learning new teachings, but they are never able to understand the truth fully.

2Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness^a is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

et cetera

What is important, is to get into the word, empty our minds of preconceived notions that we hear on tv, radio, books and even the pulpit. We need to look at the Bible, shedding our dispensational glasses and other thing that guide us into a way of thinking other than the plain meaning of bible passages. I did, and it was not easy, it was a lot of work, and I still search the scriptures daily, to confirm or refute what I believe.

Sometimes its holding your teacher on such a high pedestale, that people can't accept the notion their beloved teacher is in error.

I even had a hard time leaving a church when a really good pastor told the church that Mathew 24 was more like a grocery list than a time line.

Even though the Scripture uses terminologies like "AND THEN" and "THEN" and "IMMEDIANTLY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS".........

I believe it's completely a time line.

[iamlamad]

...

The whole pre-trib case is based on false premises, sloppy exegesis, invalid inferences, and a healthy dose of wishful thinking. It grieves me to use such strong language, and I know it appears very arrogant to those who have not yet come to see the errors of the pre-trib theory, but after studying the topic for over 30 years now, and seeing the same weak if not invalid arguments recycled over and over, I feel it is time to stop being politically correct and state in no uncertain terms, that I beleive that the view is false doctrine, and though not salvational, is never-the-less, not unimportant and perhaps for some generation, a dangerous deception. Please prayfully reconsider.

Folks, please, do not look to people like Dr. Ice for answers, nor to me or anyone else. Be a Berean and read the bible carefully, and see for yourselves.

I can certainly agree with your last thought, "study the bible for yourself." But take off all preconceived glasses before you study!

 

"The whole pre-trib case is based on false premises...?" 

 

That is better describing the post trib theories.

 

What scriptures do post tribbers use?  (Please correct me if I am wrong)

 

Matthew 24, the gathering of the elect........Posttribbers IGNORE the fact that this gathering is in HEAVEN. Pretribbers know the rapture gathers people from their graves under the earth and from walking ON the earth. Next, Paul wrote that the rapture was a MYSTERY. In fact, Paul was the ONLY writer of the New Testament that received the revelation of the rapture. So if it was a mystery up to the day Paul wrote it and taught it, then it is completely impossible that Jesus talked about the rapture in Matthew 24, else it could not have been a mystery as Paul wrote. JEsus "gathering" is a different gathering. Just because someone reads "gathering," does not necessarily mean it is speaking of the rapture of the church.

 

Posts tribbers believe (again, correct me if I am wrong) that they will be caught up as Jesus is descending. Therefore, they will MISS the wedding and wedding supper which is CLEARLY done in heaven before Jesus gets on the white horse. Another

problem here: Jesus descends to the earth, and all the righteous are changed instantly to their resurrection bodies. Post trib says they return to earth.  John 14 tells us Jesus will come and get us and take us to the houses He has prepared for us. Any 5th grader reading that passage would come to that conclusion. WHERE did Jesus go? It is written many times He went to the right hand of the Father in heaven. So it is in HEAVEN where He has prepared our mansions. It is in HEAVEN where the marriage and supper will take place.

 

Another HUGE Problem: the bible is clear that the Antichrist will OVERCOME and prevail over the saints. Do posttribbers disagree with God here, and somehow think they will survive? The chances are small indeed, when God says something different. Finally, posttribbers simply ignore the verses that tell us God does not want us going through His wrath; He set no appointment for us. Why then do postribbers insist on setting their OWN appointment? God will never override their will, so if people wish to set their own appointment, I believe God will allow it. Sure, if they resist the mark, and lose their head, they can make it to heaven the hard way - but is the the plan of God? Is this the intent of scripture? OF COURSE NOT. We do not serve this kind of God! His plan was to make a way of escape.

 

I disagee completely with Omegaman. The scriptures are very clear that we are OUT OF HERE before the Day of the Lord, Before His wrath, and before the 70th week. John too is in perfect agreement, showing us the raptured church in heaven in chapter 7, before the week has even started.  Lamad

 

[iamlamad]

...

The whole pre-trib case is based on false premises, sloppy exegesis, invalid inferences, and a healthy dose of wishful thinking. It grieves me to use such strong language, and I know it appears very arrogant to those who have not yet come to see the errors of the pre-trib theory, but after studying the topic for over 30 years now, and seeing the same weak if not invalid arguments recycled over and over, I feel it is time to stop being politically correct and state in no uncertain terms, that I beleive that the view is false doctrine, and though not salvational, is never-the-less, not unimportant and perhaps for some generation, a dangerous deception. Please prayfully reconsider.

Folks, please, do not look to people like Dr. Ice for answers, nor to me or anyone else. Be a Berean and read the bible carefully, and see for yourselves.

I can certainly agree with your last thought, "study the bible for yourself." But take off all preconceived glasses before you study!

 

"The whole pre-trib case is based on false premises...?" 

 

That is better describing the post trib theories.

 

What scriptures do post tribbers use?  (Please correct me if I am wrong)

 

Matthew 24, the gathering of the elect........Posttribbers IGNORE the fact that this gathering is in HEAVEN. Pretribbers know the rapture gathers people from their graves under the earth and from walking ON the earth. Next, Paul wrote that the rapture was a MYSTERY. In fact, Paul was the ONLY writer of the New Testament that received the revelation of the rapture. So if it was a mystery up to the day Paul wrote it and taught it, then it is completely impossible that Jesus talked about the rapture in Matthew 24, else it could not have been a mystery as Paul wrote. JEsus "gathering" is a different gathering. Just because someone reads "gathering," does not necessarily mean it is speaking of the rapture of the church.

 

Posts tribbers believe (again, correct me if I am wrong) that they will be caught up as Jesus is descending. Therefore, they will MISS the wedding and wedding supper which is CLEARLY done in heaven before Jesus gets on the white horse. Another

problem here: Jesus descends to the earth, and all the righteous are changed instantly to their resurrection bodies. Post trib says they return to earth.  John 14 tells us Jesus will come and get us and take us to the houses He has prepared for us. Any 5th grader reading that passage would come to that conclusion. WHERE did Jesus go? It is written many times He went to the right hand of the Father in heaven. So it is in HEAVEN where He has prepared our mansions. It is in HEAVEN where the marriage and supper will take place.

 

Another HUGE Problem: the bible is clear that the Antichrist will OVERCOME and prevail over the saints. Do posttribbers disagree with God here, and somehow think they will survive? The chances

[Guest]

Gee, do I really want to get into all of this now, sort of lost the mood, lol.

 

For now just one thing since it is easy:

 

 

Another HUGE Problem: the bible is clear that the Antichrist will OVERCOME and prevail over the saints. Do posttribbers disagree with God here, and somehow think they will survive?

 

Post-tribbers believe everything God says, that is why they take the position that they do.

 

Matt 14:22 - Young's Literal Translation:

 

And if those days were not shortened, no flesh would have been saved; but because of the chosen, shall those days be shortened.

 

Not that it really matters, if the antichrist wipes a believer out, he / she is better off, so who cares anyway, it is a not issue.

 

I fail to see a huge problem, or any problem what-so-ever, what am I missing?

[Guest]

Regarding the actual topic though, I find Dr. Ice's position to be problematic, simply because the the bible does not teach immanency (as pre-tribbers mean in), it teaches expectancy, not the same. If anything, it teaches delay, and after 2000 years, we see it is correct, and the early church understood it correctly too.