Dr Thomas Ice - Imminency and the Any -Moment Rapture

[iamlamad]

Iamlamad

1. Are you familiar at all with history? When have people escaped martrydom for believing in Jesus Christ? He didn't even escape death .Apparently, Pre-Tribbers believe that the Father considers them to be more "special" than His own son.

2. God hasn't promised you anything. It is the incorrect interpretation that has allowed you to come up with this notion that God PROMISED you escape. This notion might very well lead to the Pre-Tribbers spiritual demise after the arrival of the antichrist.

 

Jesus DID say that many will be deceived.

John S, sorry, poor argument. History has nothing to do with the rapture, because this is a ONE TIME event for the bride of Christ.

Yes, thank God, He died in our place. I think a good word is called substitution. Thank God, we get to face God with His righteousness, not our own. Again, very poor argument, for Jesus was "slain from the foundation of the earth." It was God's plan before earth was created.

 

I guess you need to read it again and again until faith rises in your spirit:

 

Luke 21:36

Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

 

Since this is another version of the Olivet discourse, this escape includes all that is mentioned there, and what we see written in Rev. 13. This is the will of the Father concerning His bride. Since post-tribbers insist the Olivet Discourse was for Christians, then this verse is for you and for me. I plan on escaping. How about you?

 

By the way, I have found many promises in the bible, and I want to get EVERYTHING He has promised me. Here is one: "By His stripes we are healed!" I have accessed this promise time and time again.

 

Wow! You said a lot in your last sentence: indeed, there are so many that are deceived.  I have always believed that everything we get from heaven must come by faith - that is, we approriate them by faith. This leads me to a question: will the believer have to have faith in the rapture for God to catch them up? Or, in other words, will believers that DON'T believe in a rapture be caught up? it is something to think about.

 

Lamad

[iamlamad]

 

 

I still can't find any place where those "taken" are not the wicked.

""The meek shall inherit the earth""

.

Anyone who opposes the rapture myth is a hero in my book.

And speaking of books, the reason the whole concoction was invented in the first place was to sell books, not to distribute an accurate and truthful interpretation of end times prophecy. It was John Nelson Darby who started this fantasy. You can't blame this one on Mr. Disney! Darby was a man who hung around with dabblers in the occult at one time. His association led him to propose the rapture theory.

Like all good fiction and lies, the rapture story was based upon the solid ground of scripture. In this case the solid ground is that Jesus promised He would come again. For millennia Christians have anticipated the second coming. I know I do.

Darby comes along and throws a book out there which is instantly popular. Ever noticed how demonic books have that strange sort of intellectual magnetism? If we examine all the rapture theories dispassionately we see that the theoretical consequences are that Jesus would come again...and again....and again. Three or four times or more are the number of 'returns' depending upon which version of the tale one chooses to espouse.

Add to that its a cultural thing. Only in America. A few years ago a conclave of South African protestant churches voted to reject the rapture idea completely. It's devisive, it isn't based upon sound logic and it isn't efficacious in the least. Only in America. If it's true why doesn't anybody else buy it? Because it's rubbish, that's why and everyone knows it except Americans. Do Americans have an exclusive license on the truth - or are we just really good at marketing garbage?

But the rapture theory does sell a lot of books - and that's probably the biggest single benefit to the category of Christian literary fiction.

It makes money and lots of it.

"There's a sucker born every minute."

- P.T. Barnum

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

Who's your hero?

 

Ha ha! This is funny. I want you to tell this to Paul when you arrive in heaven! I suspect he too will find it funny.

 

Sorry, it was PAUL that first wrote of the rapture. And Christian writers have written of it ever since. It is right there in our bibles for anyone to read.....just as salvation is. Many will not believe in the simple plan of salvation, and many will not believe in the rapture.

I am sure God will accomidate those who do not believe in the rapture - I don't think God will ever go against the human will.. He gave us the  right of choice. So I believe anyone who chooses to stay behind will be left behind. I choose to escape all these things. Anyway, I don't want to miss the wedding and supper in heaven. The pretrib rapture is the only way to get there, outside of losing one's head. I think this whole thing comes down to a matter of choice. I choose to beleive what Paul wrote.

 

Lamad

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

 

The pretrib view shows the true character of God - that NO FATHER would purposely send His children into great tribulation - especially  when He has promised them a way of escape, and set no appointment with them for His wrath. What kind of character does the post trib view show of God?  Is our Father God is SO MUCH better than earthly fathers.

 

It is not that some or a few believers will be wiped out, it is that ALL of them will be wiped out. Why would a loving God choose such a method to bring His children into heaven, through beheading, when He has promised to come and get us and take us to His heavenly home?  No, God would not do that. The ONLY people that will forced to face beheading for their testimony will be those that rejected salvation before the pretrib rapture. then, what happens to them is THEIR OWN FAULT, and certainly not the will of our Father.  Lamad

 

I have always found the character of God argument to be an interesting one, that somehow, in spite of all the persecutions to death from the prophets to modern day Christians, that somehow in the end times, Gods character will not allow the suffering of His people as He always has in the past.

 

 

 

It is very simple: The rapture of the bride of Christ is a ONE TIME event....it never happened in history and it will never happen again.

 

It is written that it is appointed to all men once to die - except for the rapture generation. Our death is very difficult and it is done over and over: we must die to SELF.  Lamad

[John S]

To whoever said that the Pre-Trib Rapture is all fiction and lies - Good for you.

Marv - You said "For those who don't believe in the Rapture, my guess is that you will never be in the Father's house where Christ is now".

So in other words, we are going to Hell.

This line of thinking makes me laugh at humans thinking that they know how the mind of God works.

Iamlamad - Since a Pre-Trib Rapture will NOT be happening, those who don't believe in it won't have to worry about being "caught up".

That is NOT something to think about because it won't be happening.

What Pre-Tribbers need to worry about is what will they do when a Pre-Trib Rapture doesn't occur. You MIGHT even curse God for not following through on His PROMISE.

[Montana Marv]

John S

 

So do you know when this blessed event of the Rapture (harpozo) takes place.  For if you say post-trib, you are a date setter, for you know when the Trib started and have seven years to wait.  If you have a mid-trib belief, you are a date setter, for you have 3 1/2 years to wait.  If a pre-wrath beleif, one waits a little longer.  But all these are referenced by the signing of a peace treaty (covenant), which starts the 70th week of Daniel.  But as for a pre-trib position, there is no warning, just like death, it happens, sometimes unexpectantly.  No date setting here.  Can't get close, 5 minutes, 5 years.  The clock start ticking when the A/C comes on the scene.  One has a 7 year time frame.  Go into captivity (become a slave of someone else - they may treat you good, IF you do good work for them, they will have the mark of the beast on them, they can buy and sell so as to feed you, but as for the captives, if you are older can you hold up to a 14 or 15 hour work day, for your new owner will demand of you what they want.) or be killed by a sword.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[John S]

Marv - When the AC arrives on the scene, Pre-Tribbers don't expect to be here. They don't expect to have to work 15 hour days.

They will never know who the AC is until it is too late.

Their line of thought will go - "God PROMISED us that we will be gone when the AC arrives, so that is not him". That will be their undoing.

If you are one of those people who thinks that date-setting is an appropriate thing to do, then just ignore the words of Jesus Christ.

Johnny - It is my belief that Satan LOVES the Pre-Trib Doctrine. It's a great way to deceive many.

[Guest]

.... It is my belief that Satan LOVES the Pre-Trib Doctrine. It's a great way to deceive many.....

 

~

 

Beloved, Folks Who Look Up

 

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

 

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. Luke 21:25-28

 

Are NOT Satan Pleasers

 

He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. Revelation 22:20

 

Maranatha~!

 

According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. Philippians 1:20

 

~

 

Dear Brother I Use To Believe In A Pre-Tribulation Rapture

But After Reading And Rereading My Bible And The Many Posts Of My Worthy Family

I Changed To A Tribulation Rapture Where Jesus (In The First Resurrection) Harpoons His Own Up To Him

AS He Rides Back Down To Zion Town And Rescues Israel

And Sets Up His Thousand Year Earth Reign

In Jerusalem

 

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. Jude 1:14-16

 

My Wife Still Believes In A Pre-Tribulation Rapture

She Is Still Looking Up For Her Redemption

So I Should Now Chastise Her?

For Faith?

 

And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 2 Timothy 2:24

 

May The LORD Forbid~!

 

But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. James 3:17

 

~

 

Be Kind

And Be Blessed

Beloved Of The Returning KING

 

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

 

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

[John S]

Joe - I'm Sorry - I'm not certain of what you said regarding the Pre-Trib Rapture - whether you are for or against.

Children have "Faith" that Santa Claus is going to bring them presents. Eventually, they have to be told the truth. The same holds true for Pre-Tribbers - even your wife (if I read your story correctly).

Satan is deceiving them so that his protege will not be noticed by that group of people when the Rapture fails to happen.

[Guest]

 LORD Of The Faithful

 

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Jude 1:24-25

 

~

 

Joe - I'm Sorry - I'm not certain of what you said regarding the Pre-Trib Rapture - whether you are for or against.
Children have "Faith" that Santa Claus is going to bring them presents. Eventually, they have to be told the truth. The same holds true for Pre-Tribbers - even your wife (if I read your story correctly).
Satan is deceiving them so that his protege will not be noticed by that group of people when the Rapture fails to happen.

 

Really? Santa Claus? Satan?

 

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 1 John 5:4-5

 

Words Of The Accuser?

 

And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

 

Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. Luke 20:34-38

 

They Hope In Jesus For Their Resurrection

 

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: John 11:25

 

And Their Resurrection (And Rapture) Will Happen

 

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

 

No Matter How Much The World

 

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: John 15:26

 

May Mock The Power

 

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
I and my Father are one. John 10:27-30

 

Of Jesus

 

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Colossians 1:16

 

~

 

Dear Brother, As For The Rapture I Am For This Bodily Resurrection

 

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. Job 19:25-27

 

And For My God, The LORD Of Armies

 

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

 

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:11-15

 

Who I Know Will Shout Out

 

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Revelation 20:4-6

 

And Make It So

 

And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5:27-29

 

~

 

Be Kind

And Be Blessed

Beloved Of The KING

 

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

 

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

[angels4u]

 

 

 

I still can't find any place where those "taken" are not the wicked.

""The meek shall inherit the earth""

.

Anyone who opposes the rapture myth is a hero in my book.

And speaking of books, the reason the whole concoction was invented in the first place was to sell books, not to distribute an accurate and truthful interpretation of end times prophecy. It was John Nelson Darby who started this fantasy. You can't blame this one on Mr. Disney! Darby was a man who hung around with dabblers in the occult at one time. His association led him to propose the rapture theory.

Like all good fiction and lies, the rapture story was based upon the solid ground of scripture. In this case the solid ground is that Jesus promised He would come again. For millennia Christians have anticipated the second coming. I know I do.

Darby comes along and throws a book out there which is instantly popular. Ever noticed how demonic books have that strange sort of intellectual magnetism? If we examine all the rapture theories dispassionately we see that the theoretical consequences are that Jesus would come again...and again....and again. Three or four times or more are the number of 'returns' depending upon which version of the tale one chooses to espouse.

Add to that its a cultural thing. Only in America. A few years ago a conclave of South African protestant churches voted to reject the rapture idea completely. It's devisive, it isn't based upon sound logic and it isn't efficacious in the least. Only in America. If it's true why doesn't anybody else buy it? Because it's rubbish, that's why and everyone knows it except Americans. Do Americans have an exclusive license on the truth - or are we just really good at marketing garbage?

But the rapture theory does sell a lot of books - and that's probably the biggest single benefit to the category of Christian literary fiction.

It makes money and lots of it.

"There's a sucker born every minute."

- P.T. Barnum

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

Who's your hero?

 

Ha ha! This is funny. I want you to tell this to Paul when you arrive in heaven! I suspect he too will find it funny.

 

Sorry, it was PAUL that first wrote of the rapture. And Christian writers have written of it ever since. It is right there in our bibles for anyone to read.....just as salvation is. Many will not believe in the simple plan of salvation, and many will not believe in the rapture.

I am sure God will accomidate those who do not believe in the rapture - I don't think God will ever go against the human will.. He gave us the  right of choice. So I believe anyone who chooses to stay behind will be left behind. I choose to escape all these things. Anyway, I don't want to miss the wedding and supper in heaven. The pretrib rapture is the only way to get there, outside of losing one's head. I think this whole thing comes down to a matter of choice. I choose to beleive what Paul wrote.

 

Lamad

 

You didn't really answer my question: Who's your hero?