This is the importance Christ put on Mary

[mobile21]

Here are hundreds of Quotes from some of the RCC greatest and most esteemed teachers concerning their false Mary.

From the Apostolic Digest

CHAPTER ONE

DEVOTION TO OUR LADY

IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION

http://www.catholictradition.org/mary-necessary1.htm

Below are just a few, go to the link for more if you can stomach it.

"Holy Scripture was written for Mary, about Mary, and on account of Mary."

St. Bernard

"O Lady, since thou art the dispenser of all graces, and since the grace of salvation can come only through thy hands, our salvation depends on thee."

St. Bernardine of Siena

"Mary is the whole hope of our salvation."

St. Thomas Aquinas

"The foundation of all our confidence is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will: that we obtain everything through Mary."

Ven. Pope Pius IX

"Mary desired, sought, and obtained the salvation of everyone; nay, she even effected the salvation of everyone!"

St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori

The link doesn't work.

Anyway, all the "Mary debates" have proved protestants don't believe in the biblical Mary and they just keep these fictitious conflicts alive in order to justify their separations.

It turns out they now want to bury the truth with tons of text.....

[Botz]

Mobile21..

Anyway, all the "Mary debates" have proved protestants don't believe in the biblical Mary and they just keep these fictitious conflicts alive in order to justify their separations.

Strange debate to dredge up from the vaults of time...I guess I would be labelled a Protestant as I am not a Catholic...but I certainly believe in the biblical Mary.

[stevehut]

Astralis, I didn't say that you said or thought she was EQUAL to Jesus.

Ah, but a lot of people do believe she is.

And many people are expecting JP2 to make it official at some point, because he is the most ardent Marian devotee that the world has ever seen.

[stevehut]

Ah, I just took another look at the title of this thread:

This is the importance Christ put on Mary

Yes, I agree that we should look to Jesus for an example. Here is one of those examples, recorded in two of the Gospels:

Mat 12:46-50

While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you." He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

Mark 3:31-35

Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you." "Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked. Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! 35Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."

Looks to me like Jesus was teaching his disciples, and Mom was outside, asking him to leave them and come out. Seems to me that if she really was such a loyal follower (as some would insist), she would have been in there with them. Or at minimum, not calling him away from his most important task.

[apothanein kerdos]

Wow, this sure is a can of worms.

Biblically we can prove that Mary:

* Loved Jesus as a any mother would

* Was esteemed among all women

* Was righetous

* Was a virgin when she had Christ

* Followed Him through His teachings

* Was there when He died

* Was there when He rose

Biblically what we can't establish is:

* That she was perfect

* The she ascended into heaven

* The perpetual virginity

Thus the debate digresses to sola scriptura vs. tradition.

Of course, logically, there's no way she could have been perfect or needed to be perfect...the logic and arguement behind this fails. The arguement goes she had to be perfect to bear Jesus. Well if that's the case, then her mother would have to be perfect and she could not have born of a man either. And it would go on like this down the line.

[Crusader4Christ]

I cannot find one passage in the Bible that says Mary is an Interceder, a Mediatrix, or a co-Redeemer. Mary was not perfect because she was human. Humans are not perfect, and are all sinners, as illustrated in Romans 3:10-23 (Except for Jesus, who was God in the flesh). And I don't recall any verse or passage in scripture that

designates Mary as being Queen of Heaven either. Mary was who the Holy Spirit chose to bring Jesus into the world as God in the flesh. If the Bible doesn't say she isn't the Queen of Heaven, then she isn't the Queen of Heaven, simple as that. Wouldn't the Bible make it clear if she was the Queen of Heaven? The Bible doesn't hide anything. It's straightforward. Jesus never mentioned this either. Nor did God, nor the prophets, nor the Apostles. And praying to deceased saints is vain and unscriptural. First of all, why would we pray to someone that can't here us? Second, why would we pray to anyone other than the Lord? And third, why would we pray to Mary?

And for those who do think Mary can be equated with Jesus. Where in the Bible does it say this? Can someone give me a reference to this somewhere in the Bible, and not some other book like the Catechism of the Catholic Church? I'm not trying to cause division or trying to destroy people's beliefs, I just want to point out the flaws in these ideologies when compared to the Bible.

[Botz]

Crusader4Christ...

And for those who do think Mary can be equated with Jesus. Where in the Bible does it say this? Can someone give me a reference to this somewhere in the Bible, and not some other book like the Catechism of the Catholic Church?

Perhaps this would come under the heading of 'defending the indefensible'!

I'm not trying to cause division or trying to destroy people's beliefs, I just want to point out the flaws in these ideologies when compared to the Bible.

I don't think you are causing division or trying to destroy peoples beliefs...truth needs to be expressed in as challenging and compassionate way as possible...it makes it far easier to stomach...and you do that just fine.

[mobile21]

Ah, but a lot of people do believe she is.

Why don't you name names??????.

We catholics have been around this board for A LONG TIME so I guess that by now you can say which one of us believes in such thing.

Is it me or nemuni or nicholas???.

And if you can't find one catholic, then............. why would you believe in something that is just not there? that isn't real?.

And many people are expecting JP2 to make it official at some point, because he is the most ardent Marian devotee that the world has ever seen.

It's true the Pope is very devout and it's great that he happens to be one of the finest christians in history.

Who knew!

A devout of Mary and a great christian........ all at the same time!.

[mobile21]

Biblically what we can't establish is:

* That she was perfect

But we can.

Just look at how God declares He'll create Mary sinless in Gen 3, 15.

If that doesn't do the trick, I dunno what will.

* The she ascended into heaven

We can.

Romans establishes a direct link between sin and death, so if She is sinless, she never died.

And of course, then there's Mary including her body in Rev 12, 1. Those who appear in Revelations all have bodies like Elijah, Enoch and of course Jesus. We find Mary there and She has a body so............

* The perpetual virginity

We absolutely can.

Can you name other son or daughter of Mary besides Jesus?.

Believe me....... I've asked that question to protestants over the years and none have find a single son or daughter of Mary other than Jesus (of course, those who don't know the Bible very well believe that His cousins were "His brothers" and they tend to confuse the other Mary with Mary the Mother of Jesus).

Thus the debate digresses to sola scriptura vs. tradition.

I don't think so because it belongs to Tradition things like "where Mary saw the Angel".

Mary being sinless and being alive in body and soul belongs to Scripture, not Tradition.

[Guest Called]

Biblically what we can't establish is:

* That she was perfect

But we can.

Just look at how God declares He'll create Mary sinless in Gen 3, 15.

If that doesn't do the trick, I dunno what will.

I think I must have missed that part in Genesis. Would you please point out exactly where it says Mary is sinless in there?