The Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

[ENOCH2010]

OK lets start over,which resurrection in your opinion is the rapture of the church tied to?

The Church Age, is exactly that, an Age. It ends. I've heard all the excuses. The Rapture doctrine is "new." It was invented by Darby or Scofield or Margaret MacDonald's "vision." All 100% bogus. The Pre-tribulation doctrine is as old as the church. It's what Paul taught to the Thessalonians to calm them down from thinking they had somehow missed it. It was taught until the 4th century when it disappears for a long time. Why? Because by the 4th Century, the Catholic Church cornered the market on "church" and they didn't like a doctrine that allowed Israel to have God's promises to her kept, which is what the tribulation is all about. The RCC was extremely anti-semitic which is why they adopted an allegorical interpretation of scripture, and why they choose an amillennial eschatology that excluded Israel and has the Church replacing Israel. This doctrinal error really didn't get straightened out during the Reformation either, which is why most churches today are still amillenial, in other words, no actual Millennial Kingdom. It's all just kind of hazy and open-ended, and allegorical. Scripture doesn't really mean what it says. Israel gets relegated to the Dust Bin of History and no one really has a problem with that. Except those who take the Word of God seriously, and literally. Israel and the Church are joined, yes, and we are grafted into Israel, but we are not above Israel, we do not supercede Israel, and we do not replace Israel. Israel and the church have different plans and different destinies. The Church has no place during the tribulation and it does not belong there.

I to was a pre-trib believer until it was brought to my attention that in the order of the Thes 4 scripture,a resurrection must occur along with the rapture.So I started studying the resurrections in the Bible.They're only 2 choices for the rapture theory,the first resurrection happens just prior to the 1000 year reign,the second resurrection happens just after the 1000 year reign.So for the rapture to be a Biblical doctrine,it has to happen at the first resurrection. The pre-trib doctrine doesn't teach that rapture happens along with the first resurrection,because it teaches the church will be raptured before the end time events start.The only way for the church to be raptured before the tribulation starts is to slip another resurrection into scripture prior to the second comming.Show me that resurrection in the Bible and I will change my beliefs.

[ENOCH2010]

I to was a pre-trib believer until it was brought to my attention that in the order of the Thes 4 scripture,a resurrection must occur along with the rapture.So I started studying the resurrections in the Bible.They're only 2 choices for the rapture theory,the first resurrection happens just prior to the 1000 year reign,the second resurrection happens just after the 1000 year reign.So for the rapture to be a Biblical doctrine,it has to happen at the first resurrection. The pre-trib doctrine doesn't teach that rapture happens along with the first resurrection,because it teaches the church will be raptured before the end time events start.The only way for the church to be raptured before the tribulation starts is to slip another resurrection into scripture prior to the second comming.Show me that resurrection in the Bible and I will change my beliefs.

Only if you place a wrong contextual meaning on the word "first" as has already been discussed. You can't have the Church on the earth after the 6th Seal. I can concede that it is possible that the Rapture could happen as late as that, but it cannot occur at the end of the Tribulation, for a multitude of reasons. You would have to ignore, change or throw out many parts of scripture to make a post-trib Rapture work. Have you ever considered that "first" resurrection refers only to Israel, and/or OT and Tribulation believers? Paul says specifically that the Rapture is for those "in Christ" only. That means no OT saints are resurrected at that time. When do they get resurrected? You have to have at least two separate resurrections of believers to make scripture agree and match up. The prophecy to Daniel was to him and Israel only, not the Church and it was plain that that resurrection was not until all had been accomplished. That resurrection cannot be the same one that Paul was talking about because Daniel, or anyone else up to Christ's death and resurrection was not "in" Christ.

I have to believe if another resurrection was needed just for the church,somewhere in Gods word it would have been written down.The other 2 resurrections are plainly described.Could it be that the pre-trib doctrine is faulty, not the word of God.I think I'll go with the word of God is true and the pre-trib doctrine is false.

[OneLight]

Yes, we have had this discussion. You do not see Christ coming for His church as a coming and I do. Think of it this way. You call me to pick you up, I drive up to your house, wait in my car, and you come out and we drive off. I may not of stepped inside your house, but I did come and pick you up.

Like our brother Enoch, I believe God will protect us as He protected His people in Egypt and through the flood. God did not remove them, but brought then through the events. He made a way for them to go through each event without being affected by them. That is a witness to His love and power.

Jesus' Second Coming is accomplished by Him physically returning to earth and first touching the Mount of Olives. He has to physically touch the earth for it to actually be the Second Coming. He can come within a foot of the earth and He still hasn't returned to it. Coming to a persons house is just a turn of phrase, semantics. If you just drive up the street and park in front of their house, in reality, you didn't go to their house, you went within the vicinity of it. The only way you went to their house is if you physically set foot in it. It is actually kind of disingenuous to call the Rapture a Second Coming, because it isn't, and none of us think of it that way.

Christ comes for his church at the last trumpet, just before He touches down on Mount Olives. This is mentioned in scripture in 1 Corinthians 15:52

"in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." There is no way around it Brother.

[ENOCH2010]

Yes, we have had this discussion. You do not see Christ coming for His church as a coming and I do. Think of it this way. You call me to pick you up, I drive up to your house, wait in my car, and you come out and we drive off. I may not of stepped inside your house, but I did come and pick you up.

Like our brother Enoch, I believe God will protect us as He protected His people in Egypt and through the flood. God did not remove them, but brought then through the events. He made a way for them to go through each event without being affected by them. That is a witness to His love and power.

Jesus' Second Coming is accomplished by Him physically returning to earth and first touching the Mount of Olives. He has to physically touch the earth for it to actually be the Second Coming. He can come within a foot of the earth and He still hasn't returned to it. Coming to a persons house is just a turn of phrase, semantics. If you just drive up the street and park in front of their house, in reality, you didn't go to their house, you went within the vicinity of it. The only way you went to their house is if you physically set foot in it. It is actually kind of disingenuous to call the Rapture a Second Coming, because it isn't, and none of us think of it that way.

Christ comes for his church at the last trumpet, just before He touches down on Mount Olives. This is mentioned in scripture in 1 Corinthians 15:52

"in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." There is no way around it Brother.

It's that simple But that teaching doesn't tickle the ears,it teaches that the church is in for a rough road ahead.

[OneLight]

Christ comes for his church at the last trumpet, just before He touches down on Mount Olives. This is mentioned in scripture in 1 Corinthians 15:52

"in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." There is no way around it Brother.

Can you show me where in that verse that any reference to a time frame is made? Nothing in said in that passage or the ones above and below it as to when this last trumpet is. You are assuming that it is right before Jesus returns, but the text does not say that Alan.

You know that scripture backs up scripture. The 7th trumpet is the last of Gods trumpets. Let's look at Revelation 11:15-19

Seventh Trumpet: The Kingdom Proclaimed

Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying:

“ We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,

The One who is and who was and who is to come,

Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.

The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,

And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,

And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,

And those who fear Your name, small and great,

And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

This cannot happen until Christ's 2nd coming. When the 7th (last) trumpet sounds, Christ returns and we are caught up to be with Him in the air, returning with Him. Notice that the 7 bowls give no time frame for any of them. It is my belief that they will be poured out, one right after the other, in a very short period of time.

[ENOCH2010]

I have to believe if another resurrection was needed just for the church,somewhere in Gods word it would have been written down.The other 2 resurrections are plainly described.Could it be that the pre-trib doctrine is faulty, not the word of God.I think I'll go with the word of God is true and the pre-trib doctrine is false.

Again, you resort to falsehoods. A pattern forms. When you cannot refute what is said, you resort to dishonest tactics, and that is where problems begin, because the above kind of statement is unacceptable.

Please show me where exactly I say that the Word of God is faulty. In your zeal to crush pre-trib doctrine, which you obviously despise, you have transitioned from simply debating it to openly slandering people who believe it. That is not the behavior of a Christian.

How do you get I resort to falsehoods in this post? Please show me where I say anything about you,I said the pre-trib DOCTRINE could be faulty.

[ENOCH2010]

I have to believe if another resurrection was needed just for the church,somewhere in Gods word it would have been written down.The other 2 resurrections are plainly described.Could it be that the pre-trib doctrine is faulty, not the word of God.I think I'll go with the word of God is true and the pre-trib doctrine is false.

Again, you resort to falsehoods. A pattern forms. When you cannot refute what is said, you resort to dishonest tactics, and that is where problems begin, because the above kind of statement is unacceptable.

Please show me where exactly I say that the Word of God is faulty. In your zeal to crush pre-trib doctrine, which you obviously despise, you have transitioned from simply debating it to openly slandering people who believe it. That is not the behavior of a Christian.

How do you get I resort to falsehoods in this post? Please show me where I say anything about you,I said the pre-trib DOCTRINE could be faulty.

You imply that I think the word of God is faulty because I do not accept your post-trib doctrine. This is always where the rock throwing starts. Because pre-tribs don't usually do this, they simply lay out scripture and their beliefs. It is always the post-tribers that start resorting to the above type of tactics, which would not be necessary if you truly stood on solid theological ground. "Faulty." "Itching ears." You name it. You cannot confine the dialogue to the subject, you have to take it to areas you shouldn't be going, because it's all you have.

Your kind of attitude is why I stopped participating in these Rapture threads long ago and why I won't be participating in them any longer.

I never said nor implied you think the word of God is faulty,I implied the pre-trib doctrine is faulty,and it is.It's a wish, that alot of people hold to as being the truth.

[OneLight]

Christ comes for his church at the last trumpet, just before He touches down on Mount Olives. This is mentioned in scripture in 1 Corinthians 15:52

"in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." There is no way around it Brother.

Can you show me where in that verse that any reference to a time frame is made? Nothing in said in that passage or the ones above and below it as to when this last trumpet is. You are assuming that it is right before Jesus returns, but the text does not say that Alan.

You know that scripture backs up scripture. The 7th trumpet is the last of Gods trumpets. Let's look at Revelation 11:15-19

Seventh Trumpet: The Kingdom Proclaimed

Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying:

“ We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,

The One who is and who was and who is to come,

Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.

The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,

And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,

And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,

And those who fear Your name, small and great,

And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

This cannot happen until Christ's 2nd coming. When the 7th (last) trumpet sounds, Christ returns and we are caught up to be with Him in the air, returning with Him. Notice that the 7 bowls give no time frame for any of them. It is my belief that they will be poured out, one right after the other, in a very short period of time.

Where is a parallel drawn between the last trump in 1 Corinthians and the 7th trumpet? What continually drives people to tie them together beyond the fact that they are both trumpets? Unless you have, as you say, scripture backing up scripture. The two trumpets being the same is speculation, not fact.

The 7th trumpet in Revelation is the last trumpet from God spoken of in scripture. Can you find another place in scripture where you can put the timing of a trumpet after the 7th trumpet? Last is last ...

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, HisdaughterJen.

I would only direct you to Jesus' definition of when the tribulation began and when it ends in Matt 24 for clarity:

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

...

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25Behold, I have told you before.

...

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (6th seal)

1. Desolation of Israel (66-70AD)

THEN

2. Great Tribulation

3. Tribulation cut short

THEN

4. 6th seal/antichrist and false prophet arise

The error that's being taught is that the abomination of desolation has something to do with the antichrist and that the time of wrath during which the antichrist is around is the tribulation when it is not.

The devil is empowered during the 5th trumpet of the 7th seal, after the wrath begins in the 6th seal, and the 6th seal occurs immediately after the tribulation is cut short.

IN other words,

1. tribulation cut short - white robes given at 5th seal (rapture)

2. Immediately the 6th seal occurs and wrath begins

3. devil empowered in 7th seal during wrath

You are attempting to tie the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD to the tribulation, and there is no correlation. That is a partial preterist view. None of Daniel's 70th week has occurred yet. Why do you supposed Jesus mentions Daniel in the Olivet Discourse and tells the reader to understand?

Jesus was referring to Daniel 11, the armies on Holy Ground, descecrating the Temple. And yes, Jesus Himself told us the tribulation began with the desolation of Israel and will be cut short before the 6th seal. In other words, it's been going on for nearly 2000 years. I can prove it with scripture as well. The church endures tribulation, not wrath, and the two are not the same thing - they are two distinct time periods separated by the 6th seal.

The abomination of desolation standing in the Holy Place is the Roman armies.

Matt 24: 15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Luke 21: 20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains;

Daniel 11: 31And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Sorry, but that's the wrong chapter. Chapter 11 was fulfilled by Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Chapter 9 is the chapter to which Yeshua` was referring in His Olivet Discourse. Thus, He was most certainly NOT talking about an "Antichrist" nor would he be the source of the "abomination of desolation." Rather, it was FOR THE OVERSPREADING OF THE ABOMINATIONS of the JEWS, that YESHUA` left them "desolate!" (See Matthew 23:37-39.) Their abominations (namely, the rejections of Yeshua`, God's Mashiach or Messiah or Christ, as His choice for their King) caused the desolation (the emptying of Jerusalem), which in turn became an abomination (a disgrace) to the Jews! This began in the first century and has continued up to the present and will continue until they can say, "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH!"

This is a quotation from Psalm 118:22-26 and it means "Welcome, Comer on the authority of YHVH!" When they can say that about Yeshua` whom they currently continue to reject, THEN He said He would return.

[mizzdy]

Let's examine what you are saying, or what I am reading.

Christ comes for His church (second coming) and they just hang there in mid-air while the tribulation happens (7 years) and then continues to earth, all in the same coming. This is just not the case.

Another way this can be accomplished is if there are three comings of Christ. The second would be the rapture and the third would be at the end of the tribulation. Yet, this is not scriptural either.

There is only one second coming (never a third) and that is at the last trumpet. I can see the bowls being poured out one after another, at the very end of the tribulation. I have not seen scripture telling me that these events cannot be done at the same time.

Christ coming for His Church is not the "Second Coming." I have already explained that Alan. It is only a "Second Coming" if Jesus physically returns to the earth, which He does not do at the Rapture. Nowhere do pre-trib believers say that, ever. If I say I am driving from Phoenix to "return" to Los Angeles and I stop at Indio and turn around and go back to Phoenix, I didn't go to Los Angeles. I never made it there. I didn't return.

The Church does not "hang" in the air while the Tribulation occurs. Where do you get that? Jesus takes the Church to heaven to the place prepared for them in John 14.

The reason you cannot have a post-trib rapture is because believers in Christ cannot suffer the wrath of God. We are already redeemed, bought with a price. The wrath of God is being poured out directly on everyone after the 6th seal is opened. You cannot have a Rapture of the Church after that point, or God is lying to us.

Yes, we have had this discussion. You do not see Christ coming for His church as a coming and I do. Think of it this way. You call me to pick you up, I drive up to your house, wait in my car, and you come out and we drive off. I may not of stepped inside your house, but I did come and pick you up.

Like our brother Enoch, I believe God will protect us as He protected His people in Egypt and through the flood. God did not remove them, but brought then through the events. He made a way for them to go through each event without being affected by them. That is a witness to His love and power.

I have not read every post here just too many to read but I agree, God protects His own during the bowl judgments. I like the explanation of Noah, God left the door of the ark opened for 7 days before He closed it. Did He leave it open for anyone to come to understanding and come into the ark, did He leave it open for those outside to see Gods impending doom and show them the only was to 'salvation' was to come inside for His protection and avoid the wrath, I think that could be the case. As the body of Messiah goes through this great tribulation others will be looking on to see how those 'God fearing faithful' behavior, after all we are to be His the light on earth. We have verses that tell us to 'shut up our doors for a little while until the indignation has passed' and I also believe that He takes His bride unto Himself during the bowl judgments, in some ways it could even be like a second exodus, who really truly knows till He comes for us and we are with Him even as He sets His feet onto the Mt. of Olives, forever more sounds pretty good these days!

shalom,

Mizz