Multi-Topic -- What is the purpose of the rapture?

[Bible2]

The quotations in this thread come from the original thread: "What is the purpose of a Rapture?", which the OP didn't want to get into other topics: http://www.worthychristianforums.com/index.php?/topic/140255-what-is-the-purpose-of-a-rapture/page__st__20

In this thread, no doctrine will be considered off topic, for what we believe regarding some other doctrine could be a basis for what we believe the purpose of the rapture to be. For example, the mistaken doctrine that there's a dichotomy between the church and Israel is a basis for the mistaken doctrine that the purpose of the rapture is so that the church won't have to go through the future tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18.

godrulz said:

Israel (OT) and Church (NT) are distinct vs replacement theology. Dispensational vs Covenantal views are closer to the truth.

What's the definition of "replacement theology"?

Note that even though the church is Israel (Revelation 21:9b,12b, 1 Peter 2:9-10), the church doesn't "replace" Israel, because Gentiles in the church are grafted in to become only parts of an already-existing Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16) which also includes the Jews in the church (Romans 11:1).

Also, as was pointed out in the original thread, it's necessary that all those in the church be a part of Israel, because all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b).

Also, it should be pointed out again that all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-12).

[Bible2]

~candice~ said:

Gentile believers are a member of the body but are not Israel.

1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

Note that 1 Corinthians 10:32 doesn't contradict the fact that Gentile believers are part of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

Also, it should be pointed out that 1 Corinthians 10:32 is referring to only unbelieving Jews and unbelieving Gentiles, who aren't part of the church. 1 Corinthians 10:32 isn't contradicting the fact that the church consists of believing Jews (Acts 22:3) and believing Gentiles (Romans 16:4b).

[Bible2]

shiloh357 said:

The Bible NEVER uses a definition of Israel that includes Gentiles, spiritually or otherwise.

Note that the Bible does use a definition of Israel that includes Gentiles (Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Romans 11:17,24).

shiloh357 said:

The Scriptures you cite are ripped from their natural context and do not speak to the issue you have applied them to.

Note that the cited scriptures haven't been referenced contrary to their context, and they do speak to the issue to which they have been applied.

Regarding Revelation 21:9b,12b, note that Revelation 21:12b refers to the twelve tribes of Israel in its description of the bride of Jesus Christ in Revelation 21:9b, and the bride of Christ is the church (Ephesians 5:30-32, 2 Corinthians 11:2).

Revelation 21:9-10 and Revelation 21:2 mean that the physical structure of the literal city of New Jerusalem is a picture of the church. Just as New Jerusalem's wall foundations have the names of the twelve apostles on them (Revelation 21:14), so the church's foundation is the apostles (Ephesians 2:20). And just as New Jerusalem's gates have the names of the twelve tribes of Israel on them (Revelation 21:12), so the church consists of the twelve tribes of Israel. For all Jews in the church remain members of the various tribes of Israel into which they were born (Romans 11:1b, Acts 4:36b), and all Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23).

---

Regarding 1 Peter 2:9-10, note that it's addressing the church as Israel, for it's quoting from Exodus 19:5b-6 and Hosea 2:23, which refer to Israel.

shiloh357 said:

"The Church" as an institution is a post biblical concept.

Note that the church as an institution isn't a post-Biblical concept (e.g. Matthew 16:18).

shiloh357 said:

When Paul was penning Scripture "the Church" as an institution separated from biblical Israel did not exist.

Amen, and it still doesn't exist.

shiloh357 said:

Jesus' congregation was seen originally as a subset within Israel.

Jesus' congregation is the true Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

Nonelect Jews aren't considered by God to be Israel (Romans 9:6-11) or Jews (Revelation 2:9b, Revelation 3:9). They aren't considered by God to be his children, or the children of Abraham, but the children of the devil (John 8:39-47), just as all the nonelect, no matter whether they're Jews or Gentiles, are considered by God to be the children of the devil (Matthew 13:38-39).

shiloh357 said:

Being grafted into Israel is simply Paul's metaphor for Gentile practical participation within the redeemed community.

Note that the redeemed community which believing Gentiles are grafted into is Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), the Jews' own tree (Romans 11:17,24).

shiloh357 said:

Being circumcised of the heart is a biblical metaphor going back to Deut. 10:16 and simply refers to not putting confidence in the fleshly circumcision. It ia call to holy living. . In fact, in Romans 2:28, 29 Paul is explaining to an imaginiary Jewish audience what being a Jew is all about. He is not saying that Gentiles are spiritual Jews. Circumcision of the heart is something you do to yourself, it is not a metaphor for salvation and is not provision of God's grace.

Romans 2:29 is referring to those who are circumcised Jews in spirit, whether they're Jewish believers or Gentile believers (Philippians 3:3), through their undergoing water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Colossians 2:11-12).

Edited June 25, 2011 by Bible2

[Bible2]

Fez said:

It is a question almost as confusing as predestination, and will always generate a plethora of opinion.

Note that predestination in itself isn't confusing, but relates to the elect. The elect are those individuals who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11, 2 Thessalonians 2:13b), before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b). This initial salvation is only possible because of Jesus' sacrifice (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8b, 1 Peter 1:19-20).

Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12), and so it's impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus Christ and the gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31, 1 John 5:13) through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65) or through their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18-2:16). Unsaved people can't possibly understand the gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14, 1 Corinthians 1:18) because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

The nonelect can't possibly believe in Jesus Christ and the gospel and be initially saved, even when they're shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42), because the ability to believe in Jesus Christ and the gospel comes only to the elect (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65, 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25b, Acts 11:18b).

Fez said:

I have always thought that it was to obviate the tribulation for true believers.

Note that no scripture says or requires that the purpose of the rapture is so that true believers won't have to go through the future tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18.

As was pointed out in the original thread, the Bible makes clear that the rapture will be after the tribulation. For Matthew 24:30-31 is referring to the same second coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which is referring to the same second coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Matthew 24:29 shows that these things won't occur until immediately after the tribulation. That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' second coming and the resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7-20:6).

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church and the Antichrist sits in a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem and declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15-31, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place of a third Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the 42-month worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-31).

[Bible2]

PeterH said:

God gave us the law so that we would understand that it is impossible to reach his standards. With Jesus the Christ's death and resurrection a period of grace and mercy was ushered in to show us the over whelming love God has for each of us.

Note that grace sets Christians free from the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 6:14b, John 1:17), not from the New Covenant/New Testament law of Jesus Christ (Galatians 6:2, John 15:10, 1 Corinthians 9:21, Jeremiah 31:31-34, Matthew 26:28), the commandments of which (John 14:15) are those he gave, for example, in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19-7:29) and in the writings of Paul the apostle (1 Corinthians 14:37, 1 Thessalonians 4:2).

For while Christians are initially saved by grace by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:1-5), and don't have to obey the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in order to obtain ultimate salvation (Galatians 2:16), they do have to obey the New Covenant/New Testament law of Jesus Christ in order to obtain ultimate salvation (Revelation 22:14, Hebrews 5:9, Matthew 7:21, Romans 2:6-8).

It's by believers obeying Jesus Christ's New Covenant/New Testament commandments, whether obeying them currently (1 John 3:24) or during the coming tribulation (Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 12:17b), that believers can be sure that they're truly loving him (John 14:21a,23a,24, 1 John 5:3) and that they're remaining in his love (John 15:10, John 14:21b,23b, Jude 1:21). Christians must fear ultimately losing their salvation, ultimately being cut off the same as unbelievers, if they don't continue in his goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46).

---

Also, regarding "the over whelming love God has for each of us", by "us" did you mean all believers or all people? If the latter, note that God doesn't love everyone: he hates the nonelect (Romans 9:11-22). During their lifetime, God hardens the nonelect in their sinfulness instead of showing them his mercy (Romans 9:18), because he created them to be vessels of his wrath (Romans 9:20-22, Proverbs 16:4); they were ordained to condemnation (Jude 1:4); they were appointed to disobedience (1 Peter 2:8b, Acts 2:23). But God never forces them or anyone else to commit sin; he never even tempts anyone to commit sin (James 1:13-15). All people will be justly held accountable on judgment day for their deeds (Romans 2:6-8) because neither election nor nonelection takes away the free will of people.

God created nonelect people to be vessels of his wrath instead of vessels of his mercy so that he might eternally make known his wrath and power (Romans 9:21-22, Proverbs 16:4, Revelation 14:10-11), just as God created elect people to be vessels of his mercy so that he might eternally make known his mercy, glory and wisdom (Romans 9:23, Ephesians 3:10, Ephesians 1:8,11).

God wants these aspects of his nature to be made known both to humans and to angels (Ephesians 3:10), neither of which group yet knows experientially the full extent of God's qualities and abilities (1 Corinthians 2:9, 1 Peter 1:12b). For example, the full extent of God's wrath won't be known to humans and angels until the devil and his fallen angels and all of unsaved humanity are cast into the eternal punishment of the lake of fire (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11) and saved humans and holy angels go forth from the city of New Jerusalem on the new earth to witness the punishment of the unsaved in the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:24), the eternal hell (Mark 9:45-46), and realize by actually seeing it not only the extent of God's wrath, but by it (by way of contrast) the extent of God's mercy toward them (Lamentations 3:22-23).

Just as "up" can't be eternally known for what it is without the eternal co-existence of "down", so God's mercy can't be eternally known for what it is without the eternal co-existence of his wrath.

PeterH said:

The rapture is to remove God's children from earth before God pours out his wrath and show the wicked he means business to get their attention.

Note that no scripture says or requires that the rapture is to remove God's children from the earth.

As was pointed out in the original thread, at Jesus' second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30) and then marry the obedient portion of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, cf. Matthew 25:1-12) in the clouds, before the obedient portion of the church mounts white horses and comes back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the beast) and all the unsaved armies of the world (Revelation 19:15-21).

Jesus will then make the wedding supper of Revelation 19:9 for the just-resurrected and married obedient portion of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9, 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient portion of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

Holding too strongly to the mistaken pre-tribulation rapture idea could leave some believers less prepared mentally to go through the coming tribulation.

The Bible gives us clear warning ahead of time about everything that we're going to have to face during the coming tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation 1:3, Revelation 22:16) of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18, so that we can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Mark 13:5-6,21-23, Luke 21:8, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that we can be better prepared mentally to endure the coming tribulation with patience and faith unto the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13), and not get so mad at God over our and our loved ones' awful suffering during the coming tribulation (cf. Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21) that we wrongly employ our free will to depart from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Timothy 4:4, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Luke 8:13, Matthew 24:9-13), to the ultimate loss of our salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Hebrews 10:38-39).

---

Regarding "before God pours out his wrath", note that nothing requires that the entire tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be God's wrath will be directed against any of the saved people who will be alive on the earth during the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4). Most of the tribulation could be the wrath of Satan working through evil men and natural forces to bring disaster upon the earth, just like when Satan was allowed to work through evil men and natural forces to bring disaster upon righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

Even when God's wrath comes in the seven vials (Revelation 16), the fourth and final stage of the tribulation, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials of God's wrath will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth during that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they'll go into protective chambers which they'll have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7).

Only after the seventh vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2) will Jesus Christ return and bring the second-coming day of wrath/day of the Lord (Zephaniah 1:14-15, 1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10) upon the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). And before that wrath begins, again because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

Edited June 25, 2011 by Bible2

[nebula]

1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

Note that 1 Corinthians 10:32 doesn't contradict the fact that Gentile believers are part of Israel....

I do not see the mention of "Israel' in this verse, so how can this claim be made as such?

[nebula]

Bible2 -

If believing Gentiles are as much "Israel" as the believing Jews are, then how come the believing Gentiles were not required to submit to the Law of Moses the way the believing Jews did? (Acts 15)

[nebula]

shiloh357 said:

"The Church" as an institution is a post biblical concept.

Note that the church as an institution isn't a post-Biblical concept (e.g. Matthew 16:18).

Hey Bible2, on a message board, it is courteous to post the Scriptures rather then just the reference. A lot of people are merely reading through and don't have the time to look up all the passages.

Matt. 16:18 - "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church ; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

When Jesus spoke this, was He making up a brand new word? What did He mean when He said, "Church"?

shiloh357 said:

When Paul was penning Scripture "the Church" as an institution separated from biblical Israel did not exist.

Amen, and it still doesn't exist.

Would you like to engage in the on-going debates with Chrestertonrules, where he is claiming the RCC is the only church? Care to explain how the RCC is not an institution separate from biblical Israel?

shiloh357 said:

Jesus' congregation was seen originally as a subset within Israel.

Jesus' congregation is the true Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

In the Roman world, Jesus' congregation was seen originally as a subset within Israel. Sometime after the first century it lost its identity with Israel, and the Jews were considered outcasts; any believing Jew had to give up his/her Judaism and Jewishness in order to be a part of "the Church".

[Guest shiloh357]

Quote

shiloh357 said:

The Bible NEVER uses a definition of Israel that includes Gentiles, spiritually or otherwise.

Note that the Bible does use a definition of Israel that includes Gentiles (Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Romans 11:17,24).

No, you need to examine the context. Paul, Eph 2:12, 19 was not saying that they had become "Israel." Paul is not defining "Israel." He is talking about Gentile participation in the blessings of God by virtue of their inclusion in the family of God by faith. They remain Gentiles. Nowhere is "Israel" spiritualized to refer to Gentiles as spritiual Israelites or spritiual Jews.

Gal. 3:29 refers to Genties as the seed of Abraham. Being the seed of Abraham does not make you Israel, either in the natural or in the spiritual realms. Israel is counted through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. That is why Jacob and Israel are used interchangeable in the OT. Being the seed of Abraham simply brings us into the Abraham Covenant. It does not make Gentiles spritiual Jews.

As for Romans... Being grafted into the olive tree is just another metaphor that restates what Paul said in Eph. 2. The olive tree represents the community of Israel in which Gentiles participate. They are NEVER referred to as Israelites, though.

None of those passages EVER spiritualizes "Israel" to refer to Gentiles.

Revelation 21:9-10 and Revelation 21:2 mean that the physical structure of the literal city of New Jerusalem is a picture of the church. Just as New Jerusalem's wall foundations have the names of the twelve apostles on them (Revelation 21:14), so the church's foundation is the apostles (Ephesians 2:20).

That is what you are penciling into the text. The Bible does not supply that meaning to the text.

And just as New Jerusalem's gates have the names of the twelve tribes of Israel on them (Revelation 21:12), so the church consists of the twelve tribes of Israel.

Nope. The Church is NOWHERE directly tied to the twelve tribes. The church is never called Israel, never called Jacob, is never referred to by the names that God uses for Israel. The church tries to don those titles because it sees itself as "Israel."

For all Jews in the church remain members of the various tribes of Israel into which they were born (Romans 11:1b, Acts 4:36b), and all Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23).

LOL, that is Scripturally untrue. Grafting in does not mean that they became Israelites. Ezekiel 47:21-23 is a future prophecy about the future Tribal allotment. It does not say that the sojourner will be an Israelite. It says they will be treated as native born. They get to fully participate as sojourners in the blessings of the covenant, but they are NEVER considered actual Israelites, according to the text.

The term "Israel" appars over 70 times in the NT and it always refers to the natural seed of Abraham. It is never spiritualized to be an equivalent term with "the church" and it is never spiritualized to refer to Gentiles as spiritual Jews.

Note that the church as an institution isn't a post-Biblical concept (e.g. Matthew 16:18).

Yes it is. The Church an institution (not as the body of Christ) did not exist in Paul's day. The word "church" is not a translation of either Kehilah or ekklesia. It is a pagan, Teutonic word that means "circle" and used to describe the way that the ancient druids would stand in a circle and worship the sun. It was adopted in the early English translations and is a poor description of the kind of congregation Jesus established. Ekklesia refers to a body of people called out. It is far less "institutional."

Jesus' congregation is the true Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

No, it is a subset of Israel.

Nonelect Jews aren't considered by God to be Israel (Romans 9:6-11) or Jews (Revelation 2:9b, Revelation 3:9). They aren't considered by God to be his children, or the children of Abraham, but the children of the devil (John 8:39-47), just as all the nonelect, no matter whether they're Jews or Gentiles, are considered by God to be the children of the devil (Matthew 13:38-39).

"Children of the Devil?" When Jesus used that phrase, He was speaking to the character of His enemies. He was speaking to a specific and limited audience. It is that immediate audience that Jesus referred to when He said, "you are of your father the devil." Sorry but you are misapplying that passage.

Most of what you are presenting is Replacement Theology and is something we reject on this board. Additionally, I am not a Calvinist and do not subscribed to the limited atonement and Jesus dying only for those He chose to saved and all of that. So if that is the direction you are headed, it is a wasted effort on me, as I reject that theological position.

Romans 2:29 is referring to those who are circumcised Jews in spirit, whether they're Jewish believers or Gentile believers (Philippians 3:3), through their undergoing water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Colossians 2:11-12).

Nope, sorry, but that violates the context. Paul is talking to Jews about what it means to be a true Jew. He does NOT have Gentiles in view when he is talking about the circumcision of the heart. circumsciions is not equal to baptism.

[Fraught]

shiloh357 said:

The Bible NEVER uses a definition of Israel that includes Gentiles, spiritually or otherwise.

Note that the Bible does use a definition of Israel that includes Gentiles (Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Romans 11:17,24).

shiloh357 said:

The Scriptures you cite are ripped from their natural context and do not speak to the issue you have applied them to.

Note that the cited scriptures haven't been referenced contrary to their context, and they do speak to the issue to which they have been applied.

Regarding Revelation 21:9b,12b, note that Revelation 21:12b refers to the twelve tribes of Israel in its description of the bride of Jesus Christ in Revelation 21:9b, and the bride of Christ is the church (Ephesians 5:30-32, 2 Corinthians 11:2).

Revelation 21:9-10 and Revelation 21:2 mean that the physical structure of the literal city of New Jerusalem is a picture of the church. Just as New Jerusalem's wall foundations have the names of the twelve apostles on them (Revelation 21:14), so the church's foundation is the apostles (Ephesians 2:20). And just as New Jerusalem's gates have the names of the twelve tribes of Israel on them (Revelation 21:12), so the church consists of the twelve tribes of Israel. For all Jews in the church remain members of the various tribes of Israel into which they were born (Romans 11:1b, Acts 4:36b), and all Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23).

---

Regarding 1 Peter 2:9-10, note that it's addressing the church as Israel, for it's quoting from Exodus 19:5b-6 and Hosea 2:23, which refer to Israel.

shiloh357 said:

"The Church" as an institution is a post biblical concept.

Note that the church as an institution isn't a post-Biblical concept (e.g. Matthew 16:18).

shiloh357 said:

When Paul was penning Scripture "the Church" as an institution separated from biblical Israel did not exist.

Amen, and it still doesn't exist.

shiloh357 said:

Jesus' congregation was seen originally as a subset within Israel.

Jesus' congregation is the true Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

Nonelect Jews aren't considered by God to be Israel (Romans 9:6-11) or Jews (Revelation 2:9b, Revelation 3:9). They aren't considered by God to be his children, or the children of Abraham, but the children of the devil (John 8:39-47), just as all the nonelect, no matter whether they're Jews or Gentiles, are considered by God to be the children of the devil (Matthew 13:38-39).

shiloh357 said:

Being grafted into Israel is simply Paul's metaphor for Gentile practical participation within the redeemed community.

Note that the redeemed community which believing Gentiles are grafted into is Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), the Jews' own tree (Romans 11:17,24).

shiloh357 said:

Being circumcised of the heart is a biblical metaphor going back to Deut. 10:16 and simply refers to not putting confidence in the fleshly circumcision. It ia call to holy living. . In fact, in Romans 2:28, 29 Paul is explaining to an imaginiary Jewish audience what being a Jew is all about. He is not saying that Gentiles are spiritual Jews. Circumcision of the heart is something you do to yourself, it is not a metaphor for salvation and is not provision of God's grace.

Romans 2:29 is referring to those who are circumcised Jews in spirit, whether they're Jewish believers or Gentile believers (Philippians 3:3), through their undergoing water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Colossians 2:11-12).

NOTE THAT the confusion lies in the fact that believers are no longer gentiles. it appears that once you are a believer, you are no longer a gentile.