Ro 11:20-21

[Guest shiloh357]

I don't think anyone here is suggesting salvation is corporate... salvation is by grace through (personal, individual) faith.

That is true, and since the object of Romans 11 is the relationship of corporate Israel with the corporate body of Gentile believers, one cannot use vv. 20-21 as a proof text for losing salvation.

Paul is warning the Gentiles of being "cut off" in that they could jeopardize their participation in the benefits and blessings of the covenants given to Israel. He is not warning them about losing salvation.

[~candice~]

I don't think anyone here is suggesting salvation is corporate... salvation is by grace through (personal, individual) faith.

That is true, and since the object of Romans 11 is the relationship of corporate Israel with the corporate body of Gentile believers, one cannot use vv. 20-21 as a proof text for losing salvation.

Paul is warning the Gentiles of being "cut off" in that they could jeopardize their participation in the benefits and blessings of the covenants given to Israel. He is not warning them about losing salvation.

Are you suggesting that there is salvation outside of "participation in the benefits and blessings of the covenants given to Israel"? That does not seem to be correct to me, Shiloh. Those of Israel that were broken off are not saved, correct?

[Guest shiloh357]

Are you suggesting that there is salvation outside of "participation in the benefits and blessings of the covenants given to Israel"?

I am not suggesting it, I am saying it outright.

Gentile believers are not Israelites. They are the spiritual seed of Abraham by faith. They are permitted to participate in the blessings and benefits and blessings of the covenants of Israel. Those blessings are conditional, however. When Israel was disobedient, they were not allowed to participate in the blessings of their covenants either. They were taken into exile because of disobedience. They still retained ownership of the Land, and were still His people, but were cut off from possessing and enjoying the blessings the Land had to offer.

In the same way Gentile believers can be cut off from fellowship without being severed from salvation. We all can by all means lose fellowship with the Lord and fail to experience the benefits of His favor. And that should be just as serious to us. Salvation, however, is a gift and is not conditional upon our obedience or disobedience. If it were, it would be a reward for service/performance and that is just not a tenable position to hold, theologically, or biblically.

That does not seem to be correct to me, Shiloh. Those of Israel that were broken off are not saved, correct?

Yes, but they were not believers when they were cut off. Being cut off did not result in any different spritual condition than what they were already living in. So there was no loss of salvation in their case. Paul's point is that if God can cut them off, Gentile believers had better learn from that and take a good dose of humility to themselves and not presume to cast aspersions and behave arrogantly toward the natural branches because they could just as easily be cut off from the enjoyment of the covenant benefits He has bestowed on Israel.

Romans chapter 11 is pertaining to the restoration of Israel and he is addressing the Gentiles corporately, as you have already affirmed. It is not a treatise on personal salvation (Like John 3 or Eph. 2). You cannot affirm that this is coproate in nature and not pertaining to individual salvation on the one hand, but also argue that it references the loss of one's salvation. You cannot have it both ways.

[~candice~]

OK, we are drifting back into our soapbox topic Shiloh. I'll address this specific issue in there, once I've addressed your current dissertation .

[Guest shiloh357]

OK, we are drifting back into our soapbox topic Shiloh. I'll address this specific issue in there, once I've addressed your current dissertation .

Well, I dunno about that. I am covering ground here that I did not in teh soapbox as some interesting issues have been raised in this discussion that were not raised in the soapbox. But whatever you want to do is Okie McSmoky with mie!

[~candice~]

OK, we are drifting back into our soapbox topic Shiloh. I'll address this specific issue in there, once I've addressed your current dissertation .

Well, I dunno about that. I am covering ground here that I did not in teh soapbox as some interesting issues have been raised in this discussion that were not raised in the soapbox. But whatever you want to do is Okie McSmoky with mie!

OK, but my soapbox argument doesn't hinge on Ro 11. So carry on, but I might not have time to address this until next week.

[Smalcald]

Yes there are a variety of points being made in this passage it is a great passage.

The passage clearly states that the Jews were cut off because of unbelief and that these gentile believers stood on faith. This is why I believe faith is a key point of the passage. Without faith nothing really matters, there are no promises to the Jew without faith, it is all nothing without faith in Christ. The entire point of all the Jewish people, the Nation of Israel, the Torah, the Promises is one thing Jesus Christ. Christ IS the summation and total of all blessings promised to the Jews what could be more important?

The fact that the Jews brought this gift to all of humankind is glorious the idea that a gentile would think he was above a Jew because of his faith which lets him join the natural branch is a big problem and Paul was addressing this.

[Botz]

In the context of what is happening at this point in history in the development of the Gospel....Jews had preached the 'Good-News' to other Jews, many of them were responding and being 'saved'...then Peter got his revelation and went to Cornelius, followed by Paul and his convertion and eventual ministry where he had a pattern of going to every Synagogue he came across, preaching to the Jews, received by some, then rejected and abused, but in the meantime a groundswell of Gentiles were responding, and his ministry and method of planting congregations developed with the foundations rooted in Gentile Believers who formed the core of leadership.

Through this time it is apparent there is an ache in Pauls heart for his kinsmen ( Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ I lie not my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost 2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren my kinsmen according to the flesh), and he can see first hand some of the dangers and pitfalls developing through large groups of Gentile congregations emerging without a grounding in the roots of their faith, and becoming detatched from both the historical reality and the purpose and heart of G-d towards the Jewish people....so much so that in their wisdom/conceit they might believe the Jews are cursed, cut-off and discarded and voila...they the Gentiles have replaced them....especially when they are aware of how Paul has been treated at the hands of his own people.

In these days that we live in, something is changing in the Body of Messiah, divisions are becoming more defined, and one of the main sticking points in Gentile Believers understanding is what G-d is doing amongst the Jewish people....who have been, are and always will be, the 'apple of His eye'...and many amongst us have gone to great lengths, and with surgical skill to theologically eradicate the truth and thrust of Pauls deep concern so clearly expressed in these chapters of Romans.

I believe the 'breaking off' that is threatened to the Gentile Believers, has already been happening....like sections of ones body becoming necrosed and dead with no blood supply to sustain it any more...and where once there was life, there is now death...and the attitude rife amongst many of us concerning the Jews, shows that Pauls fears were grounded in the Holy Ghost.

This 'breaking off' is not immediately obvious, it happens over time, and many movements that were once full of the Spirit, are now utterly devoid of the Spirit...and the demarkation between those that love and support the Jewish people and their Jewish Believing brethren is becoming more obvious....especially since 1948 and the re-establishmnet of the nation of Israel. I don't believe the Spirit of G-d will continue to hang around or bless those that set themselves up as G-ds chosen replacement for His people....and although He is merciful and longsuffering towards us...there is a process going on, a sifting and a testing that amongst other things is also connected to where we stand regarding the Jewish people.

To summerise...the 'breaking off' is a slow almost imperceptible paradigm shift within the Gentile Body....and the 'grafting in again' is becoming more and more evident because the focus is on a much narrower section of people.

[~candice~]

Yesssss Botz I would agree that this breaking off is already occurring. However I go one step further and suggest that those broken off, do not have the spirit, and are thus not saved. IMHO.

[Smalcald]

According to this passage and all of scripture the breaking off or grafting in has to do with one thing, faith in Jesus Christ as Lord. To the degree that Churches lose faith in Christ as God yes they will be removed from the Book of Life and the natural tree.

Arrogance about our free gift of salvation shows a lack of humility and gratitude.