Ro 11:20-21

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

Paul makes this explicit throughout his letters:

O goodie, another list where we'll examine each one to see how it doesn't at all explicitly state what you assert.

Just as a reminder, you're claiming that these verses expressly state that our cooperation is lacking for salvation, but of course since I believe in salvation through the cooperation of faith, then it needs to be qualified that specifically our works are what is lacking in salvation. Now let's see how these passages confirm or disconfirm that assertion.

1 Cor 7:19

Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts.

Nope, nothing about lacking our works for salvation here.

Col 1:24

Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

Nice try. How about we look at that passage in context?

"... all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus".

OK, so we see that by continuing in faith and the gospel we are made holy and unblameable and unreproven in God's sight, and God dispensed Paul to fill up that which was behind of the afflictions of Christ in his own flesh... was that to make him holy, or blameless or unreproven in God's sight, or does this passage say that such is accomplished by continuing in the faith becuase Christ reconciled us from our wicked works through death?

So that strongly disconfirms your point.

Luke 10:27 He answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

Nope, nothing about lacking our works for salvation here. The verse is about love.

John 15:10

If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

Nope, nothing about lacking our works for salvation here.

John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

Nope, nothing about lacking our works for salvation here.

1 John 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.

Nope, nothing about lacking our works for salvation here.

1 John 2:6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

Nope, nothing about lacking our works for salvation here.

So scripture explicitly states that we are saved as a gift of God, by grace through faith not by works.

You infer that scripture is wrong about that from the passages above then trust your inference, "Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition" (Mark 7:13).

[Guest]

When There Is A High And Lofty Sinner Man Claiming To To Be The Highest Bridge Builder Between All Mankind And The Heavens Above

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 1 Timothy 2:5

And Who Allows No Appeal Of His Decisions

Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: Romans 11:18-20

You Have A Man Who Knowingly Is

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. Matthew 23:8-10

The Enemy Of God

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. Hosea 6:6

Saying Work

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Romans 3:20

Or Perish

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

____________

Jesus Saves

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

The Dogmas Of Men Don't

Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.

For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. 2 Corinthians 11:1-4

Believe

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

And Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe

____________

Jesus Is LORD

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever. Revelation 5:5-14

[Guest shiloh357]

1) If Jesus says we must do something what happens if we refuse to do it?

Our obedience is the outworking of our salvation we don't obey to get saved. We obey because when we receive Jesus into our hearts, He transforms us and gives us a new heart and desire to serve God. Obedience to Christ is what we do. We may not be perfect in that obedience, but it is the character of an authentic Christian to live a live of service and obedience to the Lord.

2) If we don't remain in Jesus will we go to heaven?

We abide in Him because He is the one keeps and preserves. Salvation in the Greek and in the Hebrew carry the connotations of deliverance, restoration, preservation, assurance and healing. He keeps and holds on to us. We abide in Him because we are baptized into Him. Salvation is God holding on to us, not us holding on to Him.

3) Will we reap what we sow?

Yes, but reaping and sowing is not a metaphor for salvation. We do not "sow" for salvation, nor do we reap it. Reaping is the result of human effort. Salvation does not come fom our efforts. It is not a reward we receive. Salvation is a 100% free gift. If you are trying to earn salvation, you are not a Christian and you wll die and go to hell because you are trying to earn what cannot be earned. If you don't recieve the free gift of God's grace, you do not have salvation and do not belong to Christ.

4) Is it possible to refuse to cooperate with God's grace?

The problem is that the Bible does not teach us to "cooperate with God's grace." We don't cooperate with God in salvation. Salvatoin is a free gift of God's grace. Everything needed for salvation was accomplished by Jesus on the cross. You are not good enough to cooperate with God. You have nothing to offer and you have nothing God wants or needs. Grace is something you receive by faith. Grace, by definition, cannot be earned in any context. Grace is always given at the good pleasure of the person in a position to grant it. It is given on that basis, or not at all.

[Fez]

Salvation is God holding on to us, not us holding on to Him.

Precisely!

I have come to believe that saying "I love Jesus", is vastly different from saying "Jesus loves me".

The former relies on us loving, and in doing that we strive to love. We often enter into law to "Justify" our love. Hence a lot of doctrinal arguments and twisted scripture as we try to "love" Him on our terms.

"Jesus loving us" seems like such a simple concept, but it is where many of us fall short because we can't understand that it is just that simple. We try to justify this as well. We can't.

We simply don't understand what Grace actually is.....

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

Some questions for you, since you don't seem to be reading the same bible I am.

That's an unsubstantiated claim.

With what part do you disagree. You can't just turn a blind eye to the whole post and start in on another tangent. You have to address my arguments and demonstrate at what point I've erred, and provide compelling answers to my challenges.

1) If Jesus says we must do something what happens if we refuse to do it?

2) If we don't remain in Jesus will we go to heaven?

3) Will we reap what we sow?

4) Is it possible to refuse to cooperate with God's grace?

You're still issuing non sequiture statements.

These things are just your unsubstantiated assumptions that are attempting to make deductions according to premises we've already exposed as false. You're just re-routing back to your assumptions since the evidence didn't pan out in your favour when examined.

Take 4, for example, since it was the one we most recently addressed. I've already told you we cooperate with God's grace through faith, because by grace, through faith are we saved, not by works, it is the gift of God... right? Or do you challenge the Word of God? See, your arguments are pitiful.

You consistently resort to accusing me of ignoring your points, even though in writing we can all see that I am addressing each and every one of your arguments comprehensively, and you simply ignore all my points and retreat to your initial assumptions, which I've already addressed.

So let's just fire up a debate in the Soapbox, and debate whether the Bible says that salvation is by grace through faith alone, or if works are required so this thread can return to the OP, OK?

[Guest shiloh357]

1) Your point seems to be that we lose our ability to disobey Jesus when we become Christians. I don't believe this is true. I don't believe God forces us to obey. Obedience is a choice.

No, that is not my point. I did not say we lose our ability to be disobedience. I said we are not perfect in our obedience, but our heart is transformed so that we want to obey. Sure, we stumble, but a true Christian has heart of obedience to God. It is our choice, but from a heart of love and gratitude to God for salvation. We don't obey to earn his favor or to earn salvation. We obey because he is the object of our desire.

2) That's not what Jesus said: John 15:10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

Right, this is not talking about salvation. It is talking about fellowship. It is not saying, you will remain saved if you keep the commandments. He is talking about intimate fellowship. Works have no causal effect on salvation. If they did, then you wouldn't need Jesus.

3) This sounds like salvation to me:

Gal6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

The problem with your approach is that you characterize this as working for salvation. That is not what is view here. YOu need to uderstand this verse in the light of the reason Paul wote Galatians. The Galatians believed they had to be circumcized in their flesh in order to be saved. They believed that they had to convert to the Jewish religion. Paul's point is that that they are sowing to the flesh. So long as they continue down that path, they are headed for destruction. The problem was that they were not relying on Christ alone as their means of salvation. "Sewing to the flesh" in the context of Galatians referred to the Judaizing heresy that had befallen that congregation.

4) Titus 2 11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,

2 Corinthians 6:1 As God's fellow workers we urge you not to receive God's grace in vain.

Philippians 3:10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,

Romans 8:17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Matt 16:24

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

1 Peter 4:13 But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.

1 Peter 2:21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

None of that amounts to cooperating with God's grace. In fact, all of them demonstrate the opposite. Coooperating with God's grace really borders on heretical teaching and any authentic Christian will reject such nonsense.

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

Some questions for you, since you don't seem to be reading the same bible I am.

That's an unsubstantiated claim.

With what part do you disagree. You can't just turn a blind eye to the whole post and start in on another tangent. You have to address my arguments and demonstrate at what point I've erred, and provide compelling answers to my challenges.

1) If Jesus says we must do something what happens if we refuse to do it?

2) If we don't remain in Jesus will we go to heaven?

3) Will we reap what we sow?

4) Is it possible to refuse to cooperate with God's grace?

Take 4, for example, since it was the one we most recently addressed. I've already told you we cooperate with God's grace through faith, because by grace, through faith are we saved, not by works, it is the gift of God... right? Or do you challenge the Word of God? See, your arguments are pitiful.

I'm waiting for you to start the debate. Let me know if I need to do something. I'm not familiar with the process.

I've put in the request.

Regarding the bolded portion of your post above:

Do you believe that sin can destroy a person's faith?

You're still not addressing any of the points I made. You said we seem to be reading different Bibles, but yet all I'm claiming is that eternal life is the gift of God, as scripture says wholly apart from interpretation, and that we are saved by grace through faith, not works and that is the gift of God, which scripture says wholly apart from interpretation.

You've failed to demonstrate how the above is not so, simply because it is impossible to do so. It's just what the Bible actually says.

By contrast, you made the statement that the Bible explicitly states the contrary, and then provided a series of verses, none of which explicitly stated anything of the sort.

Therefore you're making assumptions that you attribute to the Bible and using those extra-biblical assumptions to interpret the Bible, even when the Bible expressly states the contrary... and when that happens you appeal to lists of questions that seem to make sense to you according to what seems right to you, as we see in the four questions Shiloh already addressed and now this one.

But what seems right to you is no gauge for truth: "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death" (Proverbs 14:12), "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:8).

So your assertions are not Biblical. They are contrary to the Word of God and are therefore vain imaginings.

This is so much the more evident because what you're struggling and failing to demonstrate isn't even what you believe.

You're pretending that you’re trying to show that this passage from Ephesians 5, “among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people….For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient” states that we can lose our salvation (which it doesn’t, as we’ve already seen), but in point of fact this isn’t an argument you actually stand behind.

The works that the Catholic Church prescribes in order to supposedly impart the merit of salvation are not synonymous with avoiding impurity, greed, sexual immorality, etc. Not in any way.

Baptism, taking the Eucharist, and other such things are what the RCC claims are the works necessary for salvation. Throughout its history the RCC has populated many of the seats within its hierarchy with lascivious, power-hungry individuals and pedophiles, and among the Catholic masses are the normal range of human sinners, but the RCC’s doctrine says that many of them will inherit the Kingdom of heaven despite their impurities if they submit to the superstitious ‘works’ prescribed by the RCC.

You’re positioning it as though salvation was conditional upon the morality, purity and selflessness this verse commands, so even if what you’re saying were correct, all that would actually serve to demonstrate is that the works that save us are the works avoiding immorality, impurity, or greed – which is idolatry. Avoiding idolatry isn’t actually a good work. Avoiding whoring after something isn’t a good work that earns something, it’s just refraining from terrible iniquity.

But that’s not even the position you maintain, since you’d like to use this verse in defense of the Catholic notion of good works, which centers around submission to an institution and the work of the Eucharist, which supposedly provides ongoing remission of sins and therefore ironically is itself idolatry since Jesus died once for all as we see thrice repeated in Hebrews. The idle 'works' of the RCC are not the dynamic works set out for us to do according to scripture.

The RCC doesn't demand that every Catholic mirror the sheep from the passage in Matthew 25:31-46, and feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, invite in the stranger, cloth the naked, or visit the persecuted in prison (although certainly many Catholics do) as the necessary works for salvation; instead the RCC demands submission to its mediation through the acceptance of its imaginary role of dispenser of grace. That's how it defines good works.

So even if you succeeded in demonstrating your misinterpretation here, the position hiding behind this argument is the one you’re actually trying to defend, and it would be refuted by the argument you’re putting forward.

So, instead of running off to other passages that don’t relate and then resorting to your reasoning according to vain imaginings, why don’t you acknowledge that scripture does not simply state that we’re saved by grace, but qualifies that we’re saved by grace through faith, not by works and that is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-9) and that gift is eternal life (Romans 6:3), and that’s not a matter of interpretation, it’s simply what the Bible says “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith --and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9), “the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23)... so that we can return to the OP?

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

1) Your point seems to be that we lose our ability to disobey Jesus when we become Christians. I don't believe this is true. I don't believe God forces us to obey. Obedience is a choice.

No, that is not my point. I did not say we lose our ability to be disobedience. I said we are not perfect in our obedience, but our heart is transformed so that we want to obey. Sure, we stumble, but a true Christian has heart of obedience to God. It is our choice, but from a heart of love and gratitude to God for salvation. We don't obey to earn his favor or to earn salvation. We obey because he is the object of our desire.

Hey Shiloh, aren't you amazed when you bear in mind that by obeidance to Jesus cherstertonrules doesn't mean following the commandments towards avoiding impurity, greed and immorality, but he means submitting to the mediation of someone other than Jesus?

2) That's not what Jesus said: John 15:10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

Right, this is not talking about salvation. It is talking about fellowship. It is not saying, you will remain saved if you keep the commandments. He is talking about intimate fellowship. Works have no causal effect on salvation. If they did, then you wouldn't need Jesus.

Again, isn't the implication of what chestertonrules is submitting is obeying God's commandments incredible, since he's trying to establish recrucifying Christ afresh day after day, boasting in leaders, consulting the dead, bowing down to idols, and so forth as commandments?

[

3) This sounds like salvation to me:

Gal6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

The problem with your approach is that you characterize this as working for salvation. That is not what is view here. YOu need to uderstand this verse in the light of the reason Paul wote Galatians. The Galatians believed they had to be circumcized in their flesh in order to be saved. They believed that they had to convert to the Jewish religion. Paul's point is that that they are sowing to the flesh. So long as they continue down that path, they are headed for destruction. The problem was that they were not relying on Christ alone as their means of salvation. "Sewing to the flesh" in the context of Galatians referred to the Judaizing heresy that had befallen that congregation.

Particularily in light of the fact that Galatians starts by warning against anyone, including those who claim to be apostles or angels from heaven, from preverting the good news of salvation, which as we find out from the next chapter is those who try to earn their salvation by works.

[Guest shiloh357]

1) Your point seems to be that we lose our ability to disobey Jesus when we become Christians. I don't believe this is true. I don't believe God forces us to obey. Obedience is a choice.

No, that is not my point. I did not say we lose our ability to be disobedience. I said we are not perfect in our obedience, but our heart is transformed so that we want to obey. Sure, we stumble, but a true Christian has heart of obedience to God. It is our choice, but from a heart of love and gratitude to God for salvation. We don't obey to earn his favor or to earn salvation. We obey because he is the object of our desire.

Hey Shiloh, aren't you amazed when you bear in mind that by obeidance to Jesus cherstertonrules doesn't mean following the commandments towards avoiding impurity, greed and immorality, but he means submitting to the mediation of someone other than Jesus?

You know, I had not thought of it that way. That is interesting. Yeah, when we are talking about obedience, he means somethng other than what I mean. I am talking about obedience to Christ. He is talking about obeidence to Christ as it is mediated by the RCC, not necesarrily has it is commanded in Scripture. That puts everything in a different light altogether. It goes back to the cultic control-nature of the RCC.