The Moral Argument

[Guest]

Wonderful Words Of Life

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63

Or Not

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. John 12:48

Be Wise

Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him. Matthew 2:1-2

Love, Joe

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As long as you know the author of the word written in your heart. Once written it becomes who you are. If you know the author then you should know you can trust the spirit given through grace.

Botz provided an excellent passage from Romans that I think touches on this. His use and understanding seemed very appropriate at the time. I'll have to see if I can find it again.

Dear Botz Is A Straight Up, Loving, Truth Speaking, Honest Man

Have You Ever Considered Taking A Hint From His Friendship And Calling Upon His God?

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Stone Cold Hearts Are Transformed

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. Ezekiel 36:26

And New Creatures Are Reborn

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:3

And All Because Of Jesus Christ And Him Crucified

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 1 Peter 1:18-19

Brother, Does Pride Get Your Back Up?

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 1 John 2:16

Just Ask For Mercy And For Grace

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. John 14:13

I Do

What shall I render unto the LORD for all his benefits toward me? I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD. Psalms 116:12-13

In The Name Of Jesus

Amen~!

[Ginger5]

The newage argue this all the time. but they have no objective standard. The Spirit is somewhat intutive to all of us, but it is not a replacement for the standards of Jesus.

[UndecidedFrog]

The newage argue this all the time. but they have no objective standard. The Spirit is somewhat intutive to all of us, but it is not a replacement for the standards of Jesus.

And do you consider that all these christian denominations have agreement on "the standards of Jesus"?

Regards,

UF

[Guest]

The newage argue this all the time. but they have no objective standard. The Spirit is somewhat intuitive to all of us, but it is not a replacement for the standards of Jesus.

And do you consider that all these Christian denominations have agreement on "the standards of Jesus"?

Oh Absolutely

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Romans 10:9-11

Absolutely Dear One

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 1 Corinthians 12:3

Or They're Not His

And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. Mark 13:21-23

Praying~!

[Ginger5]

The newage argue this all the time. but they have no objective standard. The Spirit is somewhat intuitive to all of us, but it is not a replacement for the standards of Jesus.

And do you consider that all these Christian denominations have agreement on "the standards of Jesus"?

Oh Absolutely

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Romans 10:9-11

Absolutely Dear One

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 1 Corinthians 12:3

Or They're Not His

And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. Mark 13:21-23

Praying~!

Good post

[UndecidedFrog]

And do you consider that all these Christian denominations have agreement on "the standards of Jesus"?

Absolutely Dear One

Or They're Not His

Joe,

How very tautological of you.

Regards,

UndecidedFrog

[Guest shiloh357]

Not me but I don't need the above statements from "God" as a basis for my morality. Hard to say if my morality would be the same if these statement were never decreed.

My point is not that you need those above statements as a basis for your morality. My assertion is that your morality exists because you are created in the image of God and as such morality reflects that image. We train morality and values into children and as they mature those values take hold. You cannot teach morality to a dog or a cat or any other animal. You can teach them to behave but a dog will always behave in the manner that dogs behave instinctively.

We are created in God's image and so we are teachable. We can think and reason in terms of morality and value systems. NonChristians don't realize it but when they do good deeds and produce genuine good in the world, it is a reflection of being made in God's image.

Christian idealism has propagated itself through out the world. However my morality is what it is regardless of the commandments.

It is what it is because you are created in God's image.

Would you do these things, would you disobey these commandments if you thought they had not been decreed by God?

I do lots of good things that are not decreed by God.

If God had written one should sacrifice their firstborn would you see this as moral? You'd have to right, because it was written? Since you couldn't trust your own feelings on this.

That is a hypothetical question that assumes that my morality is the product of slavishly and blindly following what is in the Bible. There are all kinds of decrees in the Bible I don't follow. I don't stone adulterers, or sabbath breakers, for example.

Quote

I don't trust what God created because God's creation has been stained with sin. It is no longer as He created it. So I trust the Creator instead, since He is perfect and is without sin.

What you are trusting is your understanding of these words. You are trusting your feelings that you can trust these words. You are trusting doctrines of your religion. You can't have it both ways. You have to trust yourself to some degree. It's a break with reality to claim otherwise. The doctrine is unviable, unworkable in any sense. However it's justification is necessitated by a theological stance only.

LOL, you don't know what you are talking about. I trust God because He has always been faithful and has always proven Himself to be trustworthy. I don't trust in doctrines or feelings. Doctrines are fallible and feelings/emotions are fickle and unreliable. I trust the Bible and I trust what I read in the Bible because it comes from a God who cannot lie.

A child needs to trust their parents, whether their parents are actually trust worthy or not. Until they gain experience and understanding. However a person cannot remain a child forever. They'll never know who they can actually trust. Fairly you say you have the words in the Bible, you have nothing else to trust because you don't know what can be trusted. I trust this will not always be the case for you whether you understand that now or not.

That is an invalid comparison. A child will trust their parents until the parents prove untrustworthy. I trust the Bible and the words written in it because they are as true today as when they were first penned. They have always been proven true and they emanate from a God who cannot lie and who has always been found faithful. So any attempt to talke me out of that reality is nothing more than fool's errand.

[ByFaithAlone]

If we suppose that a moral law is like a law of logic, then the reason God cannot change his mind is similar to the reason God cannot create a square circle. But this conception of moral laws puts morality “outside” God in the same way logic is “outside” God. I think we should prefer that moral laws work in this way, so at this point I would like to know whether you think we have good reasons for supposing that this is not the case? (This is not to suggest that I have supplied an argument to suggest that it is the case)

Hmm... not sure how we would show this. There is a distinct difference. Laws of logic are impossible to break. For instance A=A. However, moral law, however objective, can be broken. For instance, murder is wrong. This statement may be objectively true but some still commit murder. Therefore, we cannot consider moral laws as analogous to the laws of logic. However, if it is part of God's essence or nature that things are moral, then we sidestep the dilemmas. The first being the E. Dilemma and the second being this dilemma regarding morality being similar to logic. At the same time, we maintain the objectivity.

Again, sorry for my delays in posting. Getting to all of them ASAP.

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

Hello All:

Just wanted to see what everyone thinks of the moral argument...

Premise 1: Objective moral values and duties cannot exist without God

Premise 2: Objective moral values and duties exist

Logical Conclusion: God exists

Do any atheists out there disagree with the premises? On what grounds?

OK, I will cut and paste a moral question from another forum. If objective moral values existed, we should all agree on the answer to the following question.

No, that's not true.

You just changed the ontological question to an epistomological one.

Whether or not we can know the objective morals does nothing to recommend whether or not those morals exist.

[Nakosis]

The newage argue this all the time. but they have no objective standard. The Spirit is somewhat intutive to all of us, but it is not a replacement for the standards of Jesus.

Actually I don't find the Holy Spirit intuitive at all. Though it is easy to mistake ones own intuition for the Holy Spirit.

However yes the standards are the standards. The Holy Spirits meets the standards of Jesus and Jesus meets the standards of the Holy Spirit. They are cut from the same cloth.