Have the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased?

[johnP]

Scudbuddy.

"These signs shall follow those who believe...."

That is what I believe but you say it happens in your way and I say it happens in mine. Someone said that kids are leaving churches because no signs are being shown and that might be true to you but I have not witnessed that.

I know that it is a part of the GOSPEL.

Yes, a part maybe but i would not have put it that way. It's the word that convicts not miracles. The miracles as any other gift comes by God. If it is not there the gift has not been given.

But what it doesn't say is this. "The GOSPEL is accepting Jesus into your heart."

I know it don't. But you can't claim miracles to be true because something else is skewed.

The POWER OF THE GOSPEL IN IT'S MANIFESTED FORM.

No way man. Where does it say that? Jesus is the Power in the manifested form. Paul spoke of Christ alone. He could not heal Tropimus but had to leave him 2 Tim 4:19. Is that lack of faith? You go too far. Explain Tropimus.

LT gave a list of where dunamus is translated miracle. Each of those passages were talking about miracles. I was told that 2 Tim 3:5 meant miracle specifically yet on reading the passage I find a bending of scripture. It is speaking about unsaved people who claim a knowledge of Christ and living in the flesh. It has nothing to do with miracles.

Now it is said that this describes my brothers who do not believe in the miracles as performed by the Apostles! I know Neb is a bit odd but I don't think he is of a depraved mind.

You see,...

Lashing out a bit are you not? When have I done that?

Barna...

Who is Barna? What is Barna? Who is keeping score?

Are there adjudicators going round checking on Churches or something?

But when a Cessationist reads the WORD that he says he respects, he leaves out the part that is stated clearly. The POWER OF THE GOSPEL IN IT'S MANIFESTED FORM. The gifts of healing, miracles, prophecy and such.

I'll come back to this later I have to go to work.

See you.

johnp

[Scudbuddy]

John P says,

"Yes, a part maybe but i would not have put it that way. It's the word that convicts not miracles. The miracles as any other gift comes by God. If it is not there the gift has not been given. "

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"No man cometh to the Father unless the SPIRIT draws him." You can read the word all day long, and not ever be convicted. Just ask any proffesor of greek and hebrew in our secular colleges. Many of them have nothing to do with God. And they read the word in thee exact way it was written.

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John P says,

"LT gave a list of where dunamus is translated miracle. Each of those passages were talking about miracles. I was told that 2 Tim 3:5 meant miracle specifically yet on reading the passage I find a bending of scripture. It is speaking about unsaved people who claim a knowledge of Christ and living in the flesh. It has nothing to do with miracles.

Now it is said that this describes my brothers who do not believe in the miracles as performed by the Apostles! I know Neb is a bit odd but I don't think he is of a depraved mind."

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First, I never said anyone had a depraved mind. Second, my issue with Neb is that he has taken Cessationism even farther in that he has gotten rid of the need to deal with demons because they too ceased with the writing of the word. Absurd, unscriptural, and not even supported by other Cessationist. And the reason I can say that is besides their numerous books accusing Pentecostals of operating with demonic spirits, when I spoke in tongues for the first time, my Cessationist church kicked me out and said I had demons.

But with Neb, that idea that anyone can have demons is not possible. And that is unbiblical.

Third, I spoke specifically of that one verse, and you are trying to use other verses. In that verse, dunamas means miraculous gifts. And in most verses it does. There is a couple where it doesn't, but that doesn't prove your point. Miraculous gifts are being denied by men with a "form of godliness." That is our point. They exist, and they are opposed by men who are all form, but no substance. The question you must decide is, Is that you? Is God not working miracles in your life because you have a form of godliness but deny the power (miraculous gifts) thereof? It is actually a question for Pentecostals too. Some of them never see the power of God in their lives also. When they dismiss the idea of such with "that ain't my gifting," they too need to ask that question.

Lashing out bit is about this. Cessationist have written dozens of books about Pentecostals equating them with having demons and bad doctrine. The Barna Report is a study done about the church by a Non-Pentecostal socialoligist who is considered one of thee foremost experts on Church issues today. His study about "Doctrine" revealed thee exact opposite of what the Cessationist are saying. He first went to the leaders of Evangelical religions and established the fundamental doctrines amongst them. Jesus Lord and Savior, born of a virgin, rose from the dead, Trinity, etc..........

Then he took all the major Christian religions, and asked their members about what they believed.

Thus the Barna report. And Cessationist who spend their life accusing Pentecostals scored real low, and Pentecostals scored the highest.

In the meantime, name me one book written by a Pentecostal whose only mission is to expose Cessationist doctrines and practice as being of the devil. A book that prints their sermons in an effort to show that they practice the occult.

I can show you books in anwser to the many Cessationist books, but they are a defense, and not an attack book. They were in anwser to books like "Counterfeit Revival."

I can show you some hyper-Pentecostal books by very small groups which attack other Pentecostals and christians if they do not speak in tongues or believe in Jesus name only. But even these books do not name pastors by name or even groups. They just state a strong belief in tongues and Oneness. And most of us Pentecostals disagree with these books as strongly as Cessationist do.

No, the Anti-Personnal books with names exclusively belong to Cessationist. That is why you are seeing such a strong vigorous defense of the Pentecostal faith. I see the root of this is Anti-Pentecostalism.

[Scudbuddy]

Who or what is driving those in Iraq to behead people in the name of allah. Not to mention the attrocities in Sudan.

Hey larryt,

So you are saying that these people are all possessed by demons? Well I would say that it is their own misguided decisions.

Hey Scudbuddy,

To do away with the gifts with I Cor.13 is one thing, but to do away with the Devils existence and role with it is much worse

I have not said that the devil does not exist. I know he still exists and that he still tempts us just as he tempted Jesus but he and demons do not posses us.

I give you this. What biblical proof do you have to get rid of demonic possession and spiritual warfare.

The proof I have is that we don

[Botz]

Neb...

Botz I

[Nebuchadnezza10]

But with Neb, that idea that anyone can have demons is not possible. And that is unbiblical.

I don

[Scudbuddy]

But with Neb, that idea that anyone can have demons is not possible. And that is unbiblical.

I don

[johnP]

Scudbuddy

You can read the word all day long, and not ever be convicted.

You deny the word! He was in the beginning. You go as far as Neb I see. What of all the Christians that are saved without a miracle. (Don't).

Just ask any proffesor of greek and hebrew in our secular colleges. Many of them have nothing to do with God.

What are you saying here? Why should I ask pagans to explain God to me? We have the Holy Spirit and the bible and that is sufficient. We have the tools for delving into the word of God as no other generation has ever had. We don't need pagans, the enemies of God, for anything.

The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: 1 Cor 2:14-15.

...when I spoke in tongues for the first time, my Cessationist church kicked me out and said I had demons.

Yea! I can imagine. Why'd yer do it? To get kicked out? You knew what they would do?

My first Church was Evangelical. The congregation took the ministers advice and voted to disallow tongues in Church meetings. Loud that is, many spoke quietly. The reason given was that it could lead to disorder.

Now I know that is not scriptural but so did they.

There was a charismatic group within the Church and they were on fire. Most came from the same housegroup and tended to sit together at Sunday services.

You could tell who came from that housegroup when the music started. The area used to erupt with arms in the air and loud singing. Was a joy to watch. But only to watch.

Within a couple of years they were gone. We helped them set up their own Church in their area and it went dim in our Church. Looked like the decorations had been taken down.

Gifts are there for the Church not for ourselves.

Demon possession is possible and to say it is not is unbiblical.

Third, I spoke specifically of that one verse, and you are trying to use other verses.

I'm sorry if I've done that but it does get a bit confusing here sometimes especially if dealing with topics that are not at the front of my mind or used to. Even those subjects I know about gets me confused often.

I offer that as an apology.

Miraculous gifts are being denied by men with a "form of godliness." That is our point. They exist...

Men with a form are not Christian. They are of no concern. The Power is Jesus. That's what makes them 'a form of' but not the substance of. Jesus is being denied.

How can any Christian say that the God of Israel does not perform miracles?

I knew a Christian that was born again and he joined the Jehovah's witnesses! He thought that was ok. He did not know. He told me he kept interrupting the services because he naturally spotted error. They kicked him out and he joined us and came on the outreach team.

Christians believe loads of strange things as you may have spotted being here.

His study about "Doctrine" revealed thee exact opposite of what the Cessationist are saying.

To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn. Isa 8:20.

That is all that's needed to refute error. That study, even if correct, has no bearing on scripture and is useless as evidence.

Thus the Barna report. And Cessationist who spend their life accusing Pentecostals scored real low, and Pentecostals scored the highest.

Would the report also include excesses of the Pentecostal movement to see how in line they are with gifts and fruit?

Scripture is sufficient. Books, books, books? Christ reigns not men. So you suffer for being good. Give a good defence and suffer.

You don't need to worry what they say. The rocks they chuck at you are aimed at Jesus. Let Him take the target off you, it belongs to Him.

I'm a Calvinist and I am all too aware of what you feel.

The One that created the universe sees everything.

Anti-Pentecostalism? So what man? Those that hold truth are laughing.

I have the greatest respect for the Pentecostals that led me to Christ, even if they did gibber a bit.

Zack 13 is talking about the end days.

No wonder your are book, book, book!

johnp

[Scudbuddy]

Scudbuddy

You can read the word all day long, and not ever be convicted.

You deny the word! He was in the beginning. You go as far as Neb I see. What of all the Christians that are saved without a miracle. (Don't).

Just ask any proffesor of greek and hebrew in our secular colleges. Many of them have nothing to do with God.

What are you saying here? Why should I ask pagans to explain God to me? We have the Holy Spirit and the bible and that is sufficient. We have the tools for delving into the word of God as no other generation has ever had. We don't need pagans, the enemies of God, for anything.

The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: 1 Cor 2:14-15.

...when I spoke in tongues for the first time, my Cessationist church kicked me out and said I had demons.

Yea! I can imagine. Why'd yer do it? To get kicked out? You knew what they would do?

My first Church was Evangelical. The congregation took the ministers advice and voted to disallow tongues in Church meetings. Loud that is, many spoke quietly. The reason given was that it could lead to disorder.

Now I know that is not scriptural but so did they.

There was a charismatic group within the Church and they were on fire. Most came from the same housegroup and tended to sit together at Sunday services.

You could tell who came from that housegroup when the music started. The area used to erupt with arms in the air and loud singing. Was a joy to watch. But only to watch.

Within a couple of years they were gone. We helped them set up their own Church in their area and it went dim in our Church. Looked like the decorations had been taken down.

Gifts are there for the Church not for ourselves.

Demon possession is possible and to say it is not is unbiblical.

Third, I spoke specifically of that one verse, and you are trying to use other verses.

I'm sorry if I've done that but it does get a bit confusing here sometimes especially if dealing with topics that are not at the front of my mind or used to. Even those subjects I know about gets me confused often.

I offer that as an apology.

Miraculous gifts are being denied by men with a "form of godliness." That is our point. They exist...

Men with a form are not Christian. They are of no concern. The Power is Jesus. That's what makes them 'a form of' but not the substance of. Jesus is being denied.

How can any Christian say that the God of Israel does not perform miracles?

I knew a Christian that was born again and he joined the Jehovah's witnesses! He thought that was ok. He did not know. He told me he kept interrupting the services because he naturally spotted error. They kicked him out and he joined us and came on the outreach team.

Christians believe loads of strange things as you may have spotted being here.

His study about "Doctrine" revealed thee exact opposite of what the Cessationist are saying.

To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn. Isa 8:20.

That is all that's needed to refute error. That study, even if correct, has no bearing on scripture and is useless as evidence.

Thus the Barna report. And Cessationist who spend their life accusing Pentecostals scored real low, and Pentecostals scored the highest.

Would the report also include excesses of the Pentecostal movement to see how in line they are with gifts and fruit?

Scripture is sufficient. Books, books, books? Christ reigns not men. So you suffer for being good. Give a good defence and suffer.

You don't need to worry what they say. The rocks they chuck at you are aimed at Jesus. Let Him take the target off you, it belongs to Him.

I'm a Calvinist and I am all too aware of what you feel.

The One that created the universe sees everything.

Anti-Pentecostalism? So what man? Those that hold truth are laughing.

I have the greatest respect for the Pentecostals that led me to Christ, even if they did gibber a bit.

Zack 13 is talking about the end days.

No wonder your are book, book, book!

johnp

John,

My point was that pagans read it all day long and are not convicted. It is not what brings us to the cross. The Spirit of God is. That is what the bible says. "No man cometh to the Father unless the Spirit draws him." Not the Word. The Spirit. These pagans read the word, and teach it in universities with absolutely no belief. The Spirit convicts. This is what the Word says.

And how did I deny the Word. I quoted the Word, but it wasn't what you wanted to hear. But I did not deny any part of the Word. Get a grip. I just happen to believe all of the Word. God actually can heal, deliver, raise the dead, and any other miracle He wants to do. That is full belief. Not this partial belief system that trys to make an excuse for why they don't see any miracles in their church.

When I got kicked out of the Church of Christ, I was 14 years old. I did not know that I would be rejected like that. I talked to my pastor before visiting an AG church. He told me tongues was just an emotional ordeal, and there was nothing else there. You get all emotional and make sounds like a baby.

So I went to see if that was true. The youth group prayed for me, and I was instantly speaking in an unknown language in thee most unemotional way possible. No joy or any type of emotions whatsoever. About 2 hours later though, I was overwhelmed with joy. From that day on, I carried my bible whereever I went, and became a bold witness. I wore a cross that was huge. And a patch on my jeans that said "Jesus is the real thing." I wore another necklace that said "Jesus, One Way." I did this throughout my high school years, college, and in the military. Today, I am still bold. When I owned my bookstore, I played worship music that was uncompromising. My bookstore was not a Christian bookstore, but a used bookstore in the gay/occultic area of Fresno. Witches fell down under the power of the Holy Spirit in my store as I prayed for them with their witch friends present. Fortune tellers went out as I prayed for them. This was all done in the public arena. Tongues is the gift that emboldened my life to preach boldly. It built my spirit up.

Before tongues, I was shy about my beliefs. After, I was bold.

But I did not know that this wonderful experience would get me kicked out by people who had just hugged me the day before.

Since then, I have been to foriegn countries, and when I did not know their language, God would open their ears, and they would understand every word I spoke, though they did not speak the language.

I am glad you are a proponent of the idea that demon possesion is real today. I am also glad you had eyes to see the good in what the charismatics brought to your church. That is a good thing.

My whole point and heart is this. I look at Cessationist as brothers. But when they write material and go on TV to criticize their Pentecostal brothers because they practice the gifts, they are getting involved in somebody elses business, and doing it in front of the unsaved. I also make it a point to get in Pentecostals faces who disrupt Cessationist services. I believe that there are some who no matter how many miracles they see, they will never be comfortable in a Pentecostal enviornment. Since it is about Jesus, and not the gifts, and Cessationist love Jesus too, I say leave them alone. Let them worship God quietly. That is church to them.

But I vigorously challenge those that meddle in my business. That think it is their mission in life to tell us to not speak in tongues or pray for the sick. That is my heart.

You and I probaly agree on 99% of everything. I don't mind you being wrong about your 1%.

You let me be wrong about my 1%. In the end, we are brothers.

As for Neb, though I am sure he is a brother, his beliefs can do much damage to the church. When something is not even in the bible like this belief that demonization went out with the apostles, that is hazardous preaching. Unlike your belief that can be debated with me from a place of respect for how you see the gifts passing, this has no basis to debate from. Zilch. You can argue with a certain amount of authority in Cessationism. His stand, even Cessationist think is absurd. I challenge you to take just as strong a stand against this lest it spread to your group of people.

[Botz]

Botz...

QUOTE 

Mark 8

11The Pharisees came and began to question Jesus. To test him, they asked him for a sign from heaven. 12He sighed deeply and said, "Why does this generation ask for a miraculous sign? I tell you the truth, no sign will be given to it.

I don't believe you would have asked the L-rd to perform for you in those days...why test the Spirit of the L-rd in these days...?

Neb...

Botz, this is a strange vs. I am not sure what exactly it means because though Jesus said he would not give that generation a sign he did. He gave them many signs. He raised people from the dead he healed people; he fed thousand of people with a few fish and a loaf of bread. Not forgetting the biggest sign of all, he was raised from the dead after 3 days.

Moreover, did not everyone who asked to be healed test the Spirit of the Lord then? Also I am not test to see if God is God. I am looking for conformation of the word of God that you have brought to me, about the gifts still being around. This is what the gifts were for, right?

I think the key to this passage is the intent behind the unbelieving inquiries of these Pharisees...on the surface their request might seem quite reasonable...but in reality they are not interested in proof....rather in proving their own mis-conceptions and showing that their knowledge of Torah in no way allows for Yeshua to be the Messiah...it is ridiculous to them.

I find your line of inquiry to be similar...the proof is everywhere if you truely have eyes to see and ears to hear (the alternative is unbelief or attributing some power other than G-ds to the reason people are apparently healed.)....I wonder what you made of the testimonies that Scudbuddy shared with us...including seeing first hand a person raised from the dead...or some of the documented creative miracles?...Maybe I should offer you a challenge and a large sum of money to prove that these things never really took place...or that people used the power of their minds to heal themselves.

You say you believe G-d can heal...but no longer does so through the gifts of the Holy Ghost... I would be interested to know what healings or miracles you or your Church members have witnessed recently and how it impacted those that witnessed the power of the L-rd ?

1Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

It is interesting to see that in many far off corners of the world where people do not necessarily have access to what you consider that which is perfect...ie the Bible...many people have a personal encounter with G-d and the supernatural usage of the gifts of the Holy Ghost is a normal occurance...visions,dreams,words of knowledge,words of wisdom,healings,miracles,tongues...all are expressed through their daily living.

I know you do not like second hand tales (though you seem to believe much of the tales from 2,000 years ago)....but there is a verse in Corinthians that touches this issue....and although none of us likes to be taken for a fool there is a point where we need to be vulnerable in love.

1Co 13:7 (Love)..Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

A commentator summed up the attitude we should emulate rather well....

believeth all things--unsuspiciously believes all that is not palpably false, all that it can with a good conscience believe to the credit of another. Compare Jam_3:17, "easy to be entreated"; Greek, "easily persuaded."

hopeth--what is good of another, even when others have ceased to hope.

endureth--persecutions in a patient and loving spirit.

Anyway Neb...a few more things to mull over.

[Scudbuddy]

QUOTE

Scudbuddy said,

"Third, I spoke specifically of that one verse, and you are trying to use other verses."

John P,

"I'm sorry if I've done that but it does get a bit confusing here sometimes especially if dealing with topics that are not at the front of my mind or used to. Even those subjects I know about gets me confused often."

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Now with that answer you served the Body well. Very rarely do I see that, and I commend you. I much rather deal with honest men with humility than anyone else ever. A breath of fresh air. Apology accepted.