Have the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased?

[Dave123]

"Have the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased?"

The sign gifts have. Everything good that we do for the Church is an undeserved gift from God.

The Cessationist's I know, including myself believe that God can and will do miracles, though not through human agency anymore, and they are not as common as one might think. We believe that God had a purpose in doing miracles through human agency and that purpose no longer exists. Many things that are called miracles are not. To say something is not a miracle is not to say that God did not do it, it is nothing more than God's providencial governing to bring everything to the end that He chose for it. We believe that God governs the universe right down to numbering of the hairs on our heads. God is at work in every little minute detail of our lives, and we will glorify Him most when we see this. Seeing Him only in the spectacular and trying to turn everything that is not a miracle into one is not glorifying God.

13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

We have two Greek verbs being used here.

"katargeo" This is the Greek verb used to describe what will happen to prophecy and knowledge.

"pauo" This is the Greek verb being used to describe what will happen to tongues.

"katargeo" means to "reduce to inactivity" or to "abolish" Both forms of the verb in verse 8 , and in verse 10, are passive; that is, something or someone will cause them to stop. That something is the coming of the "Perfect".

"pauo" means "to stop, to come to an end". Which when used of persons, indicates intentional, voluntary action upon oneself. Used of inanimate objects it indicates reflexive, self-causing action. The cause comes from within; it is built in.

So we have two different ways of these three gifts being stopped.

The gifts of prophecy and knowledge will stop when the "perfect comes".

The gift of tongues will cause itself to stop.

Note; in 13:9-13, tongues are not mentioned. Also note the highlighted parts.

13:9

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. (no tongues)

13:10

But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (Note; that only the verb katargeo is used here. "done away")

13:11

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

13:12

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13:13

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity

Does the closed cannon of scripture= the perfect?

(At one time I believed this to be true)

But now, here are some reasons I have a problem with that:

A) That idea would have been meaningless to the Corinthians.

Nowhere in this letter (1 Corinthians) does Paul mention or allude to such a scriptural completion. Spiritual and moral perfection would have been the way they would have taken that.(Math.5:48) Completed holiness, our one day becoming what God now counts or reckons us to be.

B) If the perfect refers to the completion of Scripture, Then prophecy and knowledge have already been stopped, the two most important gifts for proclaiming, interpreting, and understanding Scripture. (The gift of prophecy was only partly used for revelation)

C) Prophecy will be active in the Kingdom age. (Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17).

D) Prior to the Kingdom, during the Tribulation, God will raise up two great prophetic witnesses who "Will prophecy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth". (Rev. 11:3)

E) We will see "face to face" (1 Cor.13:12).

F) No Christian, before or after the completion of the New Testament has known the Lord as he has "been fully known".

G) The verb "katargeo" means to be abolished completely and finally. An interruption of prophecy would not fit Paul's point here, which is to show the permanency of love over the temporariness of gifts. (For those who believe it will stop and then start again)

All other popular interpretations of "the perfect" Must pass the test, which eliminates the rapture, the maturing Church, and the second coming.

The "perfect" is the eternal, heavenly state of believers.

The eternal state allows for the neuter form of the "perfect" and allows for the continuation of knowledge and prophecy during the church age, the tribulation, and the kingdom. It fits the context of Paul's emphasis on the permanence of love. It also fits his mention of our then seeing "face to face", which will come about only with our glorification, when we will be illumined by the very glory of God Himself (Rev. 21:23). Finally, again, only in heaven will we "Know fully just as [we] also have been fully known" (1 Cor. 13:12).

Here are some interesting facts to consider.

Thomas Edgar said "The Charismatic movement gained credence and initial acceptance by claiming their gifts were the same as those in Acts. For most people that is why they are credible today." That is, because most people believe the Charismatic movement offers the promise of the same gifts described in the New Testament. "Yet," he says, "Now, when challenged by the obvious fact that their gifts don't meet Biblical standards, one of their primary defenses is to claim that their gifts are not the same as those gifts in the New Testament. Faced with the facts, they have had to revoke the very foundation of their original reason for existence."

And their you have it. How many times have you heard the term "lesser gift" in defense of the authenticity of the miraculous gifts, yet these same people will claim that cessation is impossible, it's all the same from beginning to end because Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.

If you know that the book of Hebrews is telling us that God is dealing differently with His people. No more sacrifices, no more levitical system, then you know that to use Hebrews 13:8 as saying God never deals with his people differently at different times is theological suicide.

Those who claim the gift of languages for today have to create two different gifts out of one. Say the personal one is still here but the one that is not here (this is the reason we send our missionaries to language school like everyone else) is the one that miraculously overcome the language barrior. Is this not cessation?

In Christ

Dave

Edited September 29, 2004 by Dave123

[johnP]

Dave.

You say God no longer uses human agency to work miracles.

Do you mean by this that God works out His plan in such a way that miracles occur without asking for them?

...and they are not as common as one might think.

He is a God of cause and effect. Too many miracles would cause a breakdown in the natural order of things I believe.

Does the closed cannon of scripture= the perfect?

I kept seeing 'The'. 'The Perfect'. The NIV reads 'when perfection comes' not the perfect. Why is it knocking around. It is not in the Greek word is it?

The "perfect" is the eternal, heavenly state of believers.

Why not Heb 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect?

The eternal state allows for the neuter form of the "perfect"

I will still be a man after the resurrection.

The eternal state allows for the neuter form...

Only if you are spirit? We won't be perfect men until we get our bodies back. What is 'the eternal state'?

Say the personal one is still here but the one that is not here (this is the reason we send our missionaries to language school like everyone else) is the one that miraculously overcome the language barrior. Is this not cessation?

The gifts have always been the same because it is God working out His plan. If that calls for speaking different languages then speak them we will and He carries it through through us. If there is an increase or decrease in the number of miracles witnessed then that would be due to the number called for in His plan. (So to speak 'called for'.) I trust Him.

You say God no longer uses human agency to work miracles.

Did that lot on Pentecost understand what they needed to reveal God's glory? I bet they were just as surprised as the foreigners were when they started speaking in different tongues.

johnp.

[Scudbuddy]

"Have the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased?"

The sign gifts have. Everything good that we do for the Church is an undeserved gift from God.

The Cessationist's I know, including myself believe that God can and will do miracles, though not through human agency anymore, and they are not as common as one might think. We believe that God had a purpose in doing miracles through human agency and that purpose no longer exists. Many things that are called miracles are not. To say something is not a miracle is not to say that God did not do it, it is nothing more than God's providencial governing to bring everything to the end that He chose for it. We believe that God governs the universe right down to numbering of the hairs on our heads. God is at work in every little minute detail of our lives, and we will glorify Him most when we see this. Seeing Him only in the spectacular and trying to turn everything that is not a miracle into one is not glorifying God.

13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

We have two Greek verbs being used here.

"katargeo" This is the Greek verb used to describe what will happen to prophecy and knowledge.

"pauo" This is the Greek verb being used to describe what will happen to tongues.

"katargeo" means to "reduce to inactivity" or to "abolish" Both forms of the verb in verse 8 , and in verse 10, are passive; that is, something or someone will cause them to stop. That something is the coming of the "Perfect".

"pauo" means "to stop, to come to an end". Which when used of persons, indicates intentional, voluntary action upon oneself. Used of inanimate objects it indicates reflexive, self-causing action. The cause comes from within; it is built in.

So we have two different ways of these three gifts being stopped.

The gifts of prophecy and knowledge will stop when the "perfect comes".

The gift of tongues will cause itself to stop.

Note; in 13:9-13, tongues are not mentioned. Also note the highlighted parts.

13:9

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. (no tongues)

13:10

But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (Note; that only the verb katargeo is used here. "done away")

13:11

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

13:12

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13:13

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity

Does the closed cannon of scripture= the perfect?

(At one time I believed this to be true)

But now, here are some reasons I have a problem with that:

A) That idea would have been meaningless to the Corinthians.

Nowhere in this letter (1 Corinthians) does Paul mention or allude to such a scriptural completion. Spiritual and moral perfection would have been the way they would have taken that.(Math.5:48) Completed holiness, our one day becoming what God now counts or reckons us to be.

B) If the perfect refers to the completion of Scripture, Then prophecy and knowledge have already been stopped, the two most important gifts for proclaiming, interpreting, and understanding Scripture. (The gift of prophecy was only partly used for revelation)

C) Prophecy will be active in the Kingdom age. (Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17).

D) Prior to the Kingdom, during the Tribulation, God will raise up two great prophetic witnesses who "Will prophecy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth". (Rev. 11:3)

E) We will see "face to face" (1 Cor.13:12).

F) No Christian, before or after the completion of the New Testament has known the Lord as he has "been fully known".

G) The verb "katargeo" means to be abolished completely and finally. An interruption of prophecy would not fit Paul's point here, which is to show the permanency of love over the temporariness of gifts. (For those who believe it will stop and then start again)

All other popular interpretations of "the perfect" Must pass the test, which eliminates the rapture, the maturing Church, and the second coming.

The "perfect" is the eternal, heavenly state of believers.

The eternal state allows for the neuter form of the "perfect" and allows for the continuation of knowledge and prophecy during the church age, the tribulation, and the kingdom. It fits the context of Paul's emphasis on the permanence of love. It also fits his mention of our then seeing "face to face", which will come about only with our glorification, when we will be illumined by the very glory of God Himself (Rev. 21:23). Finally, again, only in heaven will we "Know fully just as [we] also have been fully known" (1 Cor. 13:12).

Here are some interesting facts to consider.

Thomas Edgar said "The Charismatic movement gained credence and initial acceptance by claiming their gifts were the same as those in Acts. For most people that is why they are credible today." That is, because most people believe the Charismatic movement offers the promise of the same gifts described in the New Testament. "Yet," he says, "Now, when challenged by the obvious fact that their gifts don't meet Biblical standards, one of their primary defenses is to claim that their gifts are not the same as those gifts in the New Testament. Faced with the facts, they have had to revoke the very foundation of their original reason for existence."

And their you have it. How many times have you heard the term "lesser gift" in defense of the authenticity of the miraculous gifts, yet these same people will claim that cessation is impossible, it's all the same from beginning to end because Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.

If you know that the book of Hebrews is telling us that God is dealing differently with His people. No more sacrifices, no more levitical system, then you know that to use Hebrews 13:8 as saying God never deals with his people differently at different times is theological suicide.

Those who claim the gift of languages for today have to create two different gifts out of one. Say the personal one is still here but the one that is not here (this is the reason we send our missionaries to language school like everyone else) is the one that miraculously overcome the language barrior. Is this not cessation?

In Christ

Dave

Dave,

I appreciate your logic in seeing that the "perfect" is heaven. But I have to admit, I have never heard of a Cessationist who did not believe that that verse is thee verse to support their theory, and yet was still a Cessationist. I am kinda flabbergasted. I do not know what to think of your reasoning as of yet. I will have to look into it.

As to human agents not having anything to do with when God does miracles, I respectfully disagree. I am glad you are open to the fact God still does miracles. So many Cessationist argue that if it was an actual miracle, the devil did it. I find that scary. Especially when the miracle was done in Jesus name, and He gets the glory. I don't know too many demons fond of that. "Let's do a miracle and build up the Kingdom of God." I guess that verse "A kingdom divided against itself......" was overlooked.

But to excuse the role the church plays in the miraculous is puzzling to me. You see, I find Jesus trying throughout the gospels to teach us how to pray for the sick, and the importance of faith, and "Ye have not because ye ask not." So I see all this training and written scripture for nothing if you are right.

Think about it. One of the most glaring things pointing to the miraculous being valid for today is that there was too much time and effort by Jesus and the apostles to teach about the gifts and their proper useage. And why, when out they go! And then add that to the promises of Acts 2:38,39 to us. These wonders were promised to all generations. And Jesus saying "These signs shall follow those who believe." Why say that, when by that time the disciples know this, practice this, and He is leaving. Training is over. They passed. Wasted breath if this was only about them.

And then Joels promise of the prophetic on the generation in the last days.

Too much bible time spent training us for something we can't have if you are right. Which is dumb. Why have a book written that was for only the generation present. The rest was for history. I don't buy it.

Besides all that, my experiences tell me different. And I have yet to see one miracle that someone was not involved in asking God.

The closet was when my 3 year old daughter had ring worm all over her legs. We went to a meeting, and she waited for the faith healer to call her out so she could be healed. Nothing happened. At the end of the meeting, she cried her little head off. So we told her we would pray for her. When we went to pray for her, the ring worm was totally gone. We did not get a chance to say one word of prayer. And she was totally healed. Not even a blemish. But I tell you, my daughter had a desperate faith for healing that night. I know she was healed by her faith. And these ringworms were a nasty infected red before that meeting. But that is the closet story I can tell of sovereign healing with no one praying.

Couple with that, the effectiveness of how signs and wonders bring the lost into the Kingdom. Jesus confirmed the word with signs following. So did the apostles. Now Jesus was the Word. He was the "Perfect", and yet He needed signs to follow to verify to the crowds that He was the real deal. If He did, The Written Word, then why should the masses without faith be different. If just by preaching the word, they came in by the thousands, and Cessationist were taking the nations, I would shut up and go with what worked. But it is the Pentecostals that are taking the nations.

The Baptist denomination voted to keep their missionaries who operated in the gifts, because too many of them did. They would have had few missionaries because of it. The nations outside of the western culture are not listening to the Nebs of their world. The very few Nebs I might add. Why should they? The Pentecostals have already proven their case. They believe what they see. Way too many healings to listen to Cessationist.

One mistake the Pentecostals have horribly made was to keep the gifts in the church. Most of the healings in Jesus ministry was in the streets. Same for the disciples. When they happened in the synagouge, it was usually because the masses brought them to Him. The church today keeps it indoors and amongst themselves way too much. I have a much greater success rate praying for the sick on the streets. God honors bold faith. It is easy to pray for someone in the church. It is gutsy to do it on the streets. (I do believe there is room to do it in church. We learn alot there in a more comfortable enviornment. But it seems the only place it is done.)

[Scudbuddy]

One other thing. About that Thomas Edgar quote. I could not relate. I have seen the NT miracles with my own eyes. Especially overseas. I don't have the slightest idea what he is talking about, unless he is referring to his own experience.

You ever been in a meeting where the power of God sweeps the whole congregation and half of them are unbelievers? I have. And the miracles that took place embarrass his statement of the "lesser."

In the NT times their success wasn't so high that to meet the masses needs, they had to have church 24/7. I can show you places where that is the facts of life. And it is because of the miracles taking place. Literally, the nets are busted, and the pastors send the new converts to other churches because they are full and overflowing 7 days a week, 11 services a day. (1 hour is taken everyday for the janitor to clean up.)

So I don't anything about the "lesser." And these groups are seeing the dead raised, the blind see, the deaf hearing and any other miracle you want to talk about. When Jesus said "Greater things.....", this is what He was talking about. So Thomas Edgar can talk all he wants to. His lack of faith is nothing to these believers. Oh, and the churches experiencing these things. Many of them are former Cessationist denominations. Nazerenes, Baptist, you name it. Holy Ghost filled and overflowing.

Go to Argentina and see thousands of demoniacs get delivered in a short time right after Carlos Annacondia says "Listen to me Satan!" Blows your theology out the door.

Or to Cuba where the masses came to every meeting of mine, with their heads sticking out of the windows. These people see the miracles take place on a grandiose scale. Things not even heard about in the NT. "Greater things......."

Guatemala has been totally changed because of Signs and Wonders. The rebels have left their rebellion and joined the church by the thousands because of this.

Or go to Mozambique where the challenge to empty a hospital has taken place. Heidi Baker was allowed to go to a "Cholera hospital" where the patients were sent to die. God emptied the place with His holy power. This is not just on her word. It is documented. The doctors give their testimony of it happening, and also many of the patients are interviewed. Her ministry for 20 years seen very little growth. In Mozambique before she attended the "Toronto Blessing", her husband and her had labored for years, and had 3 churches to show for it. One of those churches was sick and dying. After her visit to Toronto, things totally changed. She at last count, had over 5,000 churches with dozens added weekly. Mozambique is experiencing a revival that church historians say is unprecendented. These churches aren't the kind with a few members each. No, they are all solid with good healthy numbers. The only problem they are having is not enough leaders for the revival. I beg of you, even if you are a Cessationist, go. The reality of life there will smash your theology anyways. To pieces.

Go to Redding California and hang out with the young people of that church for a week. They hang out at the hospitals with their permission to pray for the sick. And the sick get healed. They hang out at malls with the malls permission and do worship services where people fall down and get delivered and healed and set free. At bus stops, they do worship services, and when the people come out of the bus, one of two things happen. They either fall to the ground and manifest demons, or they can't stop laughing because of the overwhelming joy that blows them away. Guess who gets saved. It has so affected that area that over 35 fellow churches of all denominations have joined them. On Sunday night their church is full of young people.

Every service I have been too, anywhere from 5 to 25 get saved. Sunday morning included. This is a move of God. Their favorite person to pray for is those in wheel chairs by the way. One sunday alone, I counted 7 people freed from their chair permanently. They have hired two people full time just to document the miracles. They are months behind. They can't keep up with the miracles.

So I have no idea what TE is talking about. Just another logical carnal mind at enmity with God.

[Scudbuddy]

Dave.

You say God no longer uses human agency to work miracles.

Do you mean by this that God works out His plan in such a way that miracles occur without asking for them?

...and they are not as common as one might think.

He is a God of cause and effect. Too many miracles would cause a breakdown in the natural order of things I believe.

Does the closed cannon of scripture= the perfect?

I kept seeing 'The'. 'The Perfect'. The NIV reads 'when perfection comes' not the perfect. Why is it knocking around. It is not in the Greek word is it?

The "perfect" is the eternal, heavenly state of believers.

Why not Heb 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect?

The eternal state allows for the neuter form of the "perfect"

I will still be a man after the resurrection.

The eternal state allows for the neuter form...

Only if you are spirit? We won't be perfect men until we get our bodies back. What is 'the eternal state'?

Say the personal one is still here but the one that is not here (this is the reason we send our missionaries to language school like everyone else) is the one that miraculously overcome the language barrior. Is this not cessation?

The gifts have always been the same because it is God working out His plan. If that calls for speaking different languages then speak them we will and He carries it through through us. If there is an increase or decrease in the number of miracles witnessed then that would be due to the number called for in His plan. (So to speak 'called for'.) I trust Him.

You say God no longer uses human agency to work miracles.

Did that lot on Pentecost understand what they needed to reveal God's glory? I bet they were just as surprised as the foreigners were when they started speaking in different tongues.

johnp.

JohnP,

I have to admit, I do not know where you stand. Are you a Cessationist or not? Your reply to Dave was very good, except for the fact that I thought you were a Cessationist. I am confused.

[johnP]

Scudbuddy.

Are you a Cessationist or not?

You decide for me. I don't mind labels.

I am confused.

I don't believe what you say. I do believe what you say.

Down the middle man!

What you said about your daughter I have no doubt about. I base that on what I know of you. You however are not a 'one among many' but a child of God with all the attributes given you by God to make you an individual. Different and special.

There does not seem to be any room in your argument for God to say no to a healing. Maybe I missed it. Your focus tends to be on us instead of God.

But that is the closet story I can tell of sovereign healing with no one praying.

I believe that. Why did you not take her to the doctors when you first noticed the infection? I believe you took no chances with her safety, I'm not having a go at your parenting skills but what would you have done if the illness had been serious and life threatening?

"Ye have not because ye ask not."

I believe that but it must accord with God's will still. It is God's will in the situation and not just a blanket coverage. We must accept that He can say no.

Some concerns.

Those healed still die, healing is passing. The hospitals are full and overflowing and I don't believe demons turn up at Christian events to be evicted. I know they did for Jesus but Jesus wanted them there so He could show us His power. I believe their numbers are way down from Jesus' days.

The gifts are put before the word as the way to salvation and I think that some view the healings in the bible as the norm but I don't.

God works by cause and effect. We have, the world that is, knowledge that many believe in Christ. Christianity is not a new thing. In the days of the Apostles there were people, take for instance a man in Rome, who had never heard of the God of Israel. This man is told by an evangelist that this God, Jesus, came to earth and died. He would think your mad or you had a lesser God. His God's are still alive. He is in a vacuum and has nothing to base his trust on. No peer group support. There needs to be a big show to prove the point to those who had never heard of any God in Israel. Once up and running the miracles subsided and became local events for the comfort of the chosen.

We have the witness of 2,000 years to support us. Does that make sense?

Why was Tropimus not healed?

If you read this in the next couple of hours.

I have the Mormons coming round this morning. I got them to do a study for me on Romans 9.

Pray for us. For me that I get the message right and for them to believe it. That would be the best miracle.

My reply is a bit rushed on account of this. I should read at least a chapter of their other gospel before they arrive.

God bless.

johnp.

[Nebuchadnezza10]

Hey guys. I will write back as soon as possible.

I have exams for uni.

C ya later!

[Scudbuddy]

Questions by JohnP,

"There does not seem to be any room in your argument for God to say no to a healing. Maybe I missed it. Your focus tends to be on us instead of God."

"Why did you not take her to the doctors when you first noticed the infection? I believe you took no chances with her safety, I'm not having a go at your parenting skills but what would you have done if the illness had been serious and life threatening?"

"Why was Tropimus not healed?"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1.I believe that when we pray for the sick, we do not get the blame when God does not heal or the credit for the healing. I do believe for whatever reason, God doesn't always heal. I am going to couple this question with your last question about Trophimus. I consider it one of the reasons why the question "If you can still heal the sick, why don't you empty the hospitals? is an invalid question. It is like "Physician, heal thyself." It is asked by those trying to prove you wrong. It is a device to prove the gifts are no longer present. It was used in Daves argument. The "lesser" argument.

The Word is clear that there are times when God doesn't heal. There is a verse that says "The Power of the Lord was present to heal." That shows us that Jesus waited for the Fathers timing. This is why He didn't heal all the sick.

At the sametime, I believe that since we don't always know Gods perfect will, and it is too easy to stop praying out of logic and reason coupled with the tendency to have a lack of faith, that the best way to see God move is to be persistent as the widow at the door of the wicked judge. Knock till your knuckles are bloody. Somtimes God heals instantly, and sometimes He chooses to allow persistence to have its' reward. And sometimes Trophimus stays sick. But nothing is going to happen when we don't pray.

Babe Ruth was known for his 714 home runs. He was the "Home Run King." Very few people realize he was also the "Strike Out King."

I try to hit homers.

The answer to why we didn't go to the doctors is simple. We had just come from the doctors. Medicine takes time. The doctors told us it would take some time for the medicine to work. A few hours wasn't in that equation. The infected ring worms all over her legs were all removed by God in those few hours. Not even a hint that there had ever been any. If you know "ring worms", you know that is not possible.

So no reason to call the authorities yet. We were good parents. (She's 23, and calls me 2-3 times a week from San Antonio to Fresno on her own dime.) We believe in Doctors. None of that hyper Pentecostalism in our blood. God uses Doctors as well as prayer. While I am on my way to the doctor though, Dr. Jesus is getting the first look.

Are you a Cessationist? I think you are a confused Pentecostal. I think some of their theology is in you like a barb hard to take out. I also think you have probaly seen some junk in the Pentecostals that concern you, and so you are leaning my way, but haven't quite made the transistion, because you have no intention of dishonoring the Lord in any way, shape or form. And men like me have not made the case yet. Plus you are probaly comfortable where you are at.

[Dave123]

Hi John

I hope I have time to get to all the questions, here goes.

You say God no longer uses human agency to work miracles.

Do you mean by this that God works out His plan in such a way that miracles occur without asking for them?

The best way I can describe it is this. There are two ways God does miracles in scripture. The first is through human agency i.e. the gift of healing etc.. The purpose for this gift was specific and is no longer part of God's plan. The second are mighty acts from above from God alone, not through any gifted person. Everyone has the right to cry out to God in prayer and ask for anything they may need, and if it is according to His will, he will answer it. I think what are called miracles today are mostly God's providence. God mostly answers prayer by providence. If you need $75.36 to make rent, and that very same day after asking in prayer for help, you receive a check in the mail for that exact amount, right to the penny, that is not a miracle, it is providence. I started a thread once where I asked to define miracle (in the biblical sense of the word) and it lasted over ten pages. Many people do not have the same idea of what a miracle means, and even more never even heard of providence.

I kept seeing 'The'. 'The Perfect'. The NIV reads 'when perfection comes' not the perfect. Why is it knocking around. It is not in the Greek word is it

In the KJV it says "when the perfect comes" The greek is very cear that it is a perfect "thing" so that eliminates this word meaning Jesus specificly, but can mean the second coming so would be speaking of Jesus inderectly. But, based on my earlier post, it could not be refering to the second coming.

Why not Heb 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect?

Although "perfect" is used in scripture many times to describe maturity, it could not mean maturity in that sense in this verse in chapter 13.

What is 'the eternal state'?

As you said; "We won't be perfect men until we get our bodies back." Only in heaven will we be new in body and in spirit, no more flesh to deal with. Then we will be comletely matured.

Did that lot on Pentecost understand what they needed to reveal God's glory? I bet they were just as surprised as the foreigners were when they started speaking in different tongues.

The gift of languages had a specific purpose, any secondary benefits were so God would not be a God of confusion. Outside of being a sign to the Jews, there is nothing that tongues can do that every believer cannot do easier, and more efficiantly, and with less confusion by way of his normal language for himself and for the Body. Understanding that God deals with the nation of Israel differently than He does the Body of Christ today is critical in understang the gift of languages. The Jews required the sign, always, so God gave them signs, but not always to their liking.

I better post this and work my way down.

P.S. It's also important to know that the "perfect" has nothing to do with tongues, as I have shown in my last post, and the "perfect will stop prophecy and knowledge for the individual, but not the gift itself.

Edited September 30, 2004 by Dave123

[johnP]

Scudbuddy.

It is a device to prove the gifts are no longer present. It was used in Daves argument. The "lesser" argument.

I did ask the question because I wanted to know the answer. I did not use it as a weapon. Thanks for the answer.

...is an invalid question.

To you it is because you come from the right direction. Now I know.

"The Power of the Lord was present to heal."

I am with you.

At the sametime, I believe that since we don't always know Gods perfect will, and it is too easy to stop praying out of logic and reason coupled with the tendency to have a lack of faith, that the best way to see God move is to be persistent as the widow at the door of the wicked judge. Knock till your knuckles are bloody.

That I find admirable.

None of that hyper Pentecostalism in our blood. God uses Doctors as well as prayer. While I am on my way to the doctor though, Dr. Jesus is getting the first look.

Praise the Lord.

Are you a Cessationist? I think you are a confused Pentecostal.

No I don't think so. I did not hang about with them long enough to find out what Jeus did let alone their doctrine. I've certainly seen some junk though.

And men like me have not made the case yet. Plus you are probaly comfortable where you are at.

I am content.

I have heard of ring worm but have not come across it. Sounds horrible. Thanks for your sensitivity over me mentioning your daughter and the doctors.

I wasn't very well last week and I approached the elders for a healing. I knew they would be unsure what to do. That was putting them on notice. I shall bring it up again soon with them. Why should we lose out on healings?

johnp.