Have the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased?

[Dave123]

Hi scudbuddy

But to excuse the role the church plays in the miraculous is puzzling to me. You see, I find Jesus trying throughout the gospels to teach us how to pray for the sick, and the importance of faith, and "Ye have not because ye ask not." So I see all this training and written scripture for nothing if you are right.

God will answer prayer, but does no longer require the sign gift of healing, since the faith was once for all delivered, God's word verifies itself. Every one has the right to cry out to God when they are sick, If it is according to His plan, He will heal them, and in some cases miraculously, but the "gift of healing is no longer part of His plan. The gift of healing was never meant to keep all Christians healthy.

These wonders were promised to all generations

I disagree with you here. Notice when the gifts are listed that aposltes are listed as the gifted. We no longer have apostles, so we no longer have the gifts that were specific to them. The gift of healing was unique to Jesus, the apostles, the seventy, and a few close associates and that's it. Half of the gift was meant to prove that Jesus and those with Him had authority over the evil spritual world. Notice that the same word used to translate healing is also translated to "power" in other places. Compaire all these verses together and a better picture is painted.

And then Joels promise of the prophetic on the generation in the last days

When will His Spirit be poured out on "all flesh" though? Joels prophecy will not be fulfilled completely until the after the second coming. See Rev. For Smoke, fire, and blood. The context of Joel needs to be looked at also.

Too much bible time spent training us for something we can't have if you are right. Which is dumb. Why have a book written that was for only the generation present. The rest was for history. I don't buy it.

Take the gift of languages for example, was Paul telling them that if they should happen to want to do it, this is the way? Or was Paul rebuking them for either their misuse of the true, or their pagan tongues that they considered real? These instructions came about because Paul was rebuking them.

Besides all that, my experiences tell me different. And I have yet to see one miracle that someone was not involved in asking God.

If you hold experience over the Word of God then Satan will play you like an old piano. Not good, Scud.

my daughter had a desperate faith for healing that night

And God heard her, Amen. It wasn't the faith healer, They always want to rob God of His glory. Here's an eye opener for you to consider, check this link out.

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/healthyself.html

Couple with that, the effectiveness of how signs and wonders bring the lost into the Kingdom. Jesus confirmed the word with signs following. So did the apostles. Now Jesus was the Word. He was the "Perfect", and yet He needed signs to follow to verify to the crowds that He was the real deal. If He did, The Written Word, then why should the masses without faith be different. If just by preaching the word, they came in by the thousands, and Cessationist were taking the nations, I would shut up and go with what worked. But it is the Pentecostals that are taking the nations.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God. This is taught all throughout the Bible. Jesus said if they didn't believe Moses......

He also said it is an evel and adulturous generation that seeks after a sign. The stuborn, prideful Jews got their signs and payed a heavy price for it. Jesus performed signs and most still didn't believe.

Scud, cocerning the missionaries, why do Pentecostals send their missionaries to school to learn languages?

Let one Pentecostal healer go to a hospital and heal the sick. They can't, and they won't because they know they can't. Scud, I came from a Pentecostal Church, Assemblies of God to be exact, and I heard all the stories about how things were really moving in the third world countries, that we were too sinful and that's why we didn't have the same thing happening here. Scud, it,s all lies. If the reform their doctrine at all, they will lose their church, that's why they never do, because they are slaves to the denomination.

God bless

[Dave123]

One other thing. About that Thomas Edgar quote. I could not relate. I have seen the NT miracles with my own eyes. Especially overseas. I don't have the slightest idea what he is talking about, unless he is referring to his own experience.

The quote stands Scud. And it s true. I came from a Pentecostal church. I seen with my own eyes the things they called miracles, but more importantly, as everyone was plowing forward and doing "great things", I watched countless people walk out of that church more broken than they were when they first got there. They were left high and dry as they were used so that others could make it appear that they were spiritual giants, victomizing anyone in the process. If you are honest, you have seen it to.

"Toronto Blessing",

They will come as an angel of light and devour you.

I've heard it all before, the healings, the raised from the dead, etc.. If these things really were happening through the gift of healing, and documented, it would be on the front page of every newspaper in the word, these faith healers would have people lined up for hundreds of miles, but that's not happening, why? Because it's a lie, and they know it, but they are getting rich in the process. Let one of them walk into a hospital and heal everyone, they can't, and they won't try because they know they can't. But more importantly, why would people be coming to Christ? For health, or because of faith? It's up to you, Scud, to see beyond the lies and test all thing, as a good Berean would. Challenge them. Don't take their word for it. Gird your mind for war, because everything from Satan is not going to have a big S stamped on it. Hwe will come as an angel of light. Many will be deceived, that's what the bible teaches about the last days.

God bless

[Dave123]

1.I believe that when we pray for the sick, we do not get the blame when God does not heal or the credit for the healing. I do believe for whatever reason, God doesn't always heal. I am going to couple this question with your last question about Trophimus. I consider it one of the reasons why the question "If you can still heal the sick, why don't you empty the hospitals? is an invalid question. It is like "Physician, heal thyself." It is asked by those trying to prove you wrong. It is a device to prove the gifts are no longer present. It was used in Daves argument. The "lesser" argument.

Doesn't anyone in the hospitols ever have enough faith?

Scud, listen to yourself, and the reasoning you use to protect these people.

[Dave123]

Luke 4:40 When the sun was setting, all those who had any that were sick with various diseases brought them to Him; and He laid His hands on every one of them and healed them.

Jesus healed them all.

12 And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon's Porch. 15 so that they brought the sick out into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might fall on some of them. 16 Also a multitude gathered from the surrounding cities to Jerusalem, bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all healed.

Peter healed them all

Acts 28:9 So when this was done, the rest of those on the island who had diseases also came and were healed.

Paul healed them all.

2. THE HYPOCRISY OF MODERN HEALERS (by Macarthur)

The question I hear all the time is: "Well, how do you explain what goes on?" All right, let me ask you a question. Since none of the healers can heal with a word or a touch, instantaneously, totally, everybody, organic diseases, and raise the dead; since none of them have received the gift of healing from Jesus or the Apostles; since the Bible is complete, the revelation has ceased, and more signs are no longer necessary; since the Word needs no confirmation -- it is sufficient that the man of God might be perfect; since their healings are based on faulty theology of the atonement and salvation; since they disallow God His own purposes in having some people remain sick; since their personal lives are not known to manifest the fruit of the Spirit; since so many tricks, gimmicks, and special effects are often used; since the evidence is weak, unsupported, and so-called testimonies exaggerated; since they do not go to where the sick are, as Jesus did; since they cannot heal all who come to them; and since their healings can have other possible explanations rather than that God has acted supernaturally; let me ask you this question: "How do you explain it?" You can't explain it biblically -- it is fraud, they are deceived. Maybe they don't know they are deceived; maybe they are honestly deceived, but they are deceived.

3. THE HEALING OF GOD

You say, "Are you saying God doesn't heal?" No. God answers prayer. Second, God heals in answer to prayer. God heals miraculously in answer to prayer. God heals miraculously in answer to prayer where there is faith. God heals miraculously in answer to prayer where there is faith to manifest His own glory. Don't say I don't believe God heals. I've seen Him heal. I've seen Him heal miraculously. I've seen Him heal miraculously to manifest His glory. I've seen Him heal miraculously to manifest His glory in response to faithful prayer. God heals. But, God does not heal everybody and God no longer heals through the apostolic gift of healing. That gift has ceased."

Just something I happened across here, interesting though

"SMITH WIGGLESWORTH

SMITH WIGGLESWORTH (1859-1947) was a famous Pentecostal evangelist and faith healer. Many books have been written about his unusual life. He was converted in a Methodist church, confirmed as an Anglican, and as a young man was associated with the Salvation Army and Plymouth Brethren. In 1907 he claimed that he was "baptised in the Holy Spirit" after hands were laid on him by Mary Boddy, who alleged to have had a Pentecostal experience only a month prior to that. Mrs. Boddy believed in the doctrine of healing in the atonement, but she spent the last sixteen years of her life as an invalid. Wigglesworth, too, believed that physical healing is guaranteed in the atonement of Christ. He taught against the use of all medicine. He believed that signs and wonders should always follow the preaching of the Gospel. He taught that a Christian can be justified and sanctified but still not have everything necessary from God. "People are never safe until they are baptized with the Holy Ghost" (Wigglesworth, "The Place of Power," June 1916, reprinted in The Anointing of His Spirit, p. 151). He taught that handkerchiefs which are prayed over will bring life if carried in faith to the sick (The Anointing of His Spirit, p. 231). He taught: "Jesus came to set us free from sin, to free us from sickness, so that we should go forth in the power of the Spirit and minister to the needy, sick, and afflicted" (Wigglesworth, "Divine Life Brings Divine Health," Pentecostal Evangel, Jan. 17, 1942). He claimed that the Christian has the power to speak things into existence: "God declares, 'You have an anointing.' Believe God and you will see this happen. What you say will come to pass. Speak the word and the bound shall be free, the sick shall be healed" (Wigglesworth, "Power from on High," Pentecostal Evangel, May 27, 1944).

Like today's Word-Faith preachers, Wigglesworth failed to make a proper distinction between the person and ministry of Jesus Christ and that of the Christian. He claimed that Jesus Christ increased in the fullness of God and in the power of the Holy Spirit. "I want you to understand that after the trials, after all the temptations and everything, Jesus comes out more full of God, more clothed in the Spirit, more ready for the fight" (Wigglesworth, "The Place of Power," June 1916, reprinted in The Anointing of His Spirit, p. 146). This is heresy. The Lord Jesus Christ was God the Son. He could not be "more full of God." Further, He was given the Spirit without measure (John 3:34). The Lord Jesus Christ did not come to be our example; He came to be our Savior (Lk. 19:10). Wigglesworth also taught that the Christian can operate in the same omnipotent power that Christ exercised. "Dare you come into the place of omnipotence? ... God's design is to bring you to the place where you will be a son clothed with the power of gifts and graces, ministries and operations, to bring you into glory, clothed with the majesty of heaven. For he shall bring many sons and daughters unto glory--unto son-likeness, son-perfection" (Wigglesworth, "The Privileges of Sonship," August 1924, reprinted in The Anointing of His Spirit, p. 221). This is very similar to the false Manifest Sons of God theology of the perfectibility of certain saints, and it is the same heresy as that taught today by Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, and other Word-Faith teachers. Again, it is a confusion of this present life with that which is to come. They would mock this statement, claiming that my problem is unbelief and spiritual blindness, but the fact remains that they cannot do the miracles that Christ performed. The Lord Jesus Christ never conducted a healing crusade and He never took up an offering before He performed His signs and wonders. He did not have any rock music to stir up the crowd. He did not laugh hysterically or stagger about like a drunk man. He could raise the dead and heal every sickness without fail. No Pentecostal preacher has ever been able to do this.

Wigglesworth taught a form of sinless perfection. He stated: "I am realizing very truly these days that there is a sanctification of the Spirit where the thoughts are holy, where the life is beautiful, with no blemish" (Wigglesworth, "Count It All Joy," August 1925, reprinted in The Anointing of His Spirit, p. 226). Oh, that this were the truth, but it is not. The Apostle Paul described his experience in these words: "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. ... O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death" (Rom. 8:18,24). There is spiritual victory through the Holy Spirit in this life, but it is not the experience described by Wigglesworth. It is not a life in which the thoughts are perfectly holy and in which there is no blemish. This is the destructive heresy of perfectionism, of complete sanctification, which has led multitudes of sincere people down the road of confusion and despair. To encourage people to seek and demand that which God has not promised is to expose them to demonic delusion and fleshly fanaticism."

About Wigglesworth

"He claimed that the Christian has the power to speak things into existence: "God declares, 'You have an anointing.' Believe God and you will see this happen. What you say will come to pass. Speak the word and the bound shall be free, the sick shall be healed" (Wigglesworth, "Power from on High," Pentecostal Evangel, May 27, 1944)."

Why would we need the "gift of healing" if all we had to do was to claim it?

Wigglesworth, like all faith healers today are a walking contradiction.

In Christ

Dave

[Scudbuddy]

Hi scudbuddy

But to excuse the role the church plays in the miraculous is puzzling to me. You see, I find Jesus trying throughout the gospels to teach us how to pray for the sick, and the importance of faith, and "Ye have not because ye ask not." So I see all this training and written scripture for nothing if you are right.

God will answer prayer, but does no longer require the sign gift of healing, since the faith was once for all delivered, God's word verifies itself. Every one has the right to cry out to God when they are sick, If it is according to His plan, He will heal them, and in some cases miraculously, but the "gift of healing is no longer part of His plan. The gift of healing was never meant to keep all Christians healthy.

These wonders were promised to all generations

I disagree with you here. Notice when the gifts are listed that aposltes are listed as the gifted. We no longer have apostles, so we no longer have the gifts that were specific to them. The gift of healing was unique to Jesus, the apostles, the seventy, and a few close associates and that's it. Half of the gift was meant to prove that Jesus and those with Him had authority over the evil spritual world. Notice that the same word used to translate healing is also translated to "power" in other places. Compaire all these verses together and a better picture is painted.

And then Joels promise of the prophetic on the generation in the last days

When will His Spirit be poured out on "all flesh" though? Joels prophecy will not be fulfilled completely until the after the second coming. See Rev. For Smoke, fire, and blood. The context of Joel needs to be looked at also.

Too much bible time spent training us for something we can't have if you are right. Which is dumb. Why have a book written that was for only the generation present. The rest was for history. I don't buy it.

Take the gift of languages for example, was Paul telling them that if they should happen to want to do it, this is the way? Or was Paul rebuking them for either their misuse of the true, or their pagan tongues that they considered real? These instructions came about because Paul was rebuking them.

Besides all that, my experiences tell me different. And I have yet to see one miracle that someone was not involved in asking God.

If you hold experience over the Word of God then Satan will play you like an old piano. Not good, Scud.

my daughter had a desperate faith for healing that night

And God heard her, Amen. It wasn't the faith healer, They always want to rob God of His glory. Here's an eye opener for you to consider, check this link out.

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/healthyself.html

Couple with that, the effectiveness of how signs and wonders bring the lost into the Kingdom. Jesus confirmed the word with signs following. So did the apostles. Now Jesus was the Word. He was the "Perfect", and yet He needed signs to follow to verify to the crowds that He was the real deal. If He did, The Written Word, then why should the masses without faith be different. If just by preaching the word, they came in by the thousands, and Cessationist were taking the nations, I would shut up and go with what worked. But it is the Pentecostals that are taking the nations.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God. This is taught all throughout the Bible. Jesus said if they didn't believe Moses......

He also said it is an evel and adulturous generation that seeks after a sign. The stuborn, prideful Jews got their signs and payed a heavy price for it. Jesus performed signs and most still didn't believe.

Scud, cocerning the missionaries, why do Pentecostals send their missionaries to school to learn languages?

Let one Pentecostal healer go to a hospital and heal the sick. They can't, and they won't because they know they can't. Scud, I came from a Pentecostal Church, Assemblies of God to be exact, and I heard all the stories about how things were really moving in the third world countries, that we were too sinful and that's why we didn't have the same thing happening here. Scud, it,s all lies. If the reform their doctrine at all, they will lose their church, that's why they never do, because they are slaves to the denomination.

God bless

Dave,

Those stories aren't lies. I witnessed them with my own eyes. I have preached all over the world. The third world is experiencing a mass revival the likes that have never been seen. Who ever told you that is repeating bad info. I have seen it.

Besides what I have seen, men I know that spend hours in prayer and fasting and are humble men with the fear of God all over them have told me of their own experiences. You have called all of us liars, yet you have not been where I have been.

With my own eyes I have seen the masses come to Christ after great miracles. Over seas Witch doctors consult demons who do signs that entice the people. But when Gods people confront these witch doctors, their canes swallow up the canes of the pagans.

In one city where I preached, the greatest Witch Doctor in Cuba was converted through the power of God. He was famous for pointing his finger toward people and they died. He told the pastors to leave or he would call his god down on them. He then pointed at a goat, and it died right there in front of them. He told them they were next. The people would follow the winner of this confrontation.

A Cessationist would have either scattered, or dismissed it as trickery of some sort. But not a Spirit filled believer who comes into divine confrontations with darkness like this often in Third World countries. They fasted and prayed and rebuked the man. When this man curse failed, which was the first time for him, the fear of God came on him, and he repented. Doesn't sound like a big deal to you. But to the people, they knew who this man was and his history.

When I preached in Nuevitas, I was warned of the spy in the crowd who was there to tell the authorities of all that was said. Lives were in the balance. (5 years later several of my pastors were martyred) I preached about a God who can free men from all things including communism. An american in the group cried out to me to shut up, or we would all get arrested. But this God who doesn't talk to His people anymore because the gifts went out with the apostles told me to preach on. That He would back us up with signs and wonders. By the end of the meeting, the spy got saved, healed, speaking in tongues, and slain in the spirit. She brought back to the church all her friends who also found God bigger than Communism. She knew all the arguments against God. They were squashed by the healing hand of God.

You ever seen the Wind of God blow into a room with the doors and windows shut when we asked for a visitation of the Holy Spirit? Or a sinner collapse in a parking lot as the Holy Spirit came on her? Or a Fortune teller knocked out by the power of God, and find that God was bigger than her belief system? Or a witch knocked down by the power of God in front of all her friends? These signs brought the unbeliever to their knees, or caused them to flee for their lives.

In Jamaica the number one voodoo priestess in all of Trenchtown put curses on me from only a few feet away as I prayed for the sick. It was a power encounter where the soul of the city was being enticed one way or the other. God healed the sick. God won the day.

You ever seen a womans jaw chatter side ways after telling her the secret sins of her life, and telling her to forgive her husband? And then after speaking peace over her, her jaw stops trembling side ways, and the crooked rotten teeth that she came with were perfect in color and shape? Costa Rica. By the way, the missionaries who had invited us to speak there were what I called in 1986 Unbelieving believers. Their seminary training had taught them to be more "sensible." When they heard of the things God was doing in our ministry, they warned us that Costa Ricans were more sensible than that. It was the first time I had met missionaries with such lack of faith. You should see the pictures of the Costa Ricans stacked like logs as the power of God swept over them. And the healings were incredible. These missionaries repented of their unbelief.

For many in Christendom, it comes down to this. They have a wimpy God who makes excuses for His inactivity with flowery words. My God is a hefty God. No excuses. He actually can do all things just like He claimed in the NT. I choose Him.

And for some reason Cessationist hate it, despise it, deny it, and call it lies. All the while their churches grow smaller, and ours larger.

So whoever told you that it was a lie is either fed bad info, or is a liar themselves.

In the meantime the Word is very clear about the gifts. They only lose clarity when some guy from some seminary trys to logically explain them away with "If you put the Hebrew text into the middle of the predicate, and mix it with the traditions of the land, you will find that the third moon is in the Aquarius, and therefore, how could the gifts of tongues be for today when their is so many people not speaking in tongues during the Capricorns blah, blah, blah."

It is all blather to me. I have met too many Scholars whose minds were changed at the Power of His Word being exposed for the first time. Where they saw an impossibility once, they turned around after seeing Jesus for the first time as He really is, and found that the Word could be taken at it's Word without excuses. Dr. Jack Deere is one man who I find that way. Dr. Micheal Brown is another. Dr. Don Richards is another. Men with better learning in their little finger than the two of us put together entirely. Ran into a Great big God and it messed up their little theology for good.

I have read your sides books. I have read mine. The difference is mine works.

[Scudbuddy]

I just noticed your story about Wigglesworth. As a young man in my church, I met an old preacher who as a young man, saw SW in his last years of ministry. Lester Sumrall was his name. He died recently.

With his own eyes he saw things that blow the imagination. Legs growing into shoes where there had been no legs. A man who had been brought to the meeting covered in horribly bloody bandages from a fire. All the people knew of the fire, and knew of this mans condition. After prayer of a rather forceful nature, his skin was like a babys.

I could care less what his critics say of him. They would have been eaten alive by SW in his day. (In a Metaphoric way of course. I got to be careful. The Heresy hunters look for whatever they can use on Pentecostals.)

I have read many times that particular website you recommended. I keep up on the garbage said, so I know the issues. Sorry, but their agenda excuses everything miraculous as either false or demonic. Not interested in being lied too. And I find it amazing that those who discern demons in Pentecostals forget that they aren't able to do that with the gift having ceased. (Discernment) I find it amazing that they claim that God called them to do this sort of ministry when the gift of prophecy has ceased in their eyes.(Prophecy) I find it hard to believe they can reconcile the Holy Spirit telling them of their sin, when that is no longer for today. And I find it amazing when they ask anyone to have faith in a God that stopped doing anything 2,000 years ago because He wrote a book. (Faith) How can you have faith when it ceased so long ago? All contradictions that they somehow missed.

[Nebuchadnezza10]

It is about the Jews finally accepting Christ as their Messiah. It is in that day that these things shall happen. Future event in the eyes of all these commentaries. It is speaking of when the Jews in the end times accept Christ as a nation! Hadn't happened yet.

With Zechariah 13, your right it probably isn

Edited October 1, 2004 by Nebuchadnezza10

[Scudbuddy]

It is about the Jews finally accepting Christ as their Messiah. It is in that day that these things shall happen. Future event in the eyes of all these commentaries. It is speaking of when the Jews in the end times accept Christ as a nation! Hadn't happened yet.

With Zechariah 13, your right it probably isn

[Nebuchadnezza10]

Neb,

Revelations talks of a time when the 1/3 of the nation of Israel will repent and convert to belief in Christ. Becoming a believer in Christ doesn't end your Jewishness. It completes it.

Scudbuddy,

I know what vs your talking about but can ya remember the vs?

Neb asks,

"Hey Scudbuddy,

Where did Jesus not heal all the sick that came to him?"

Scudbuddy replies,

Remember when Jesus went to the pool of Bethesda, and only healed one man among the many who were sick? That was as close to a hospital as it came in those days. This is where the sick congregated. Yet only one was healed that day.

But he chose to only heal one person. The other people did not come to him to be healed. He did not turn anyone down.

Also the gifts of the HS are subject to the person with the gift. They choose when they want to use it and when they don

Edited October 1, 2004 by Nebuchadnezza10

[Botz]

Numbers 13:33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

1Kings 18:27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Mark 6:6 He marveled because of their unbelief...

Matthew 13:58 He didn't do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

Hebrews 3:19 We see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.

Mark 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Jesus is the cure for the curse of unbelief.