Have the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased?

[Dave123]

Hey Neb, you may have missed this one. This is from page nine and was my first post on this thread.

"Have the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased?"

The sign gifts have. Everything good that we do for the Church is an undeserved gift from God.

Edited October 2, 2004 by Dave123

[Scudbuddy]

One of the deceptions put on the Body of Christ is to deny our emotions and experiences. They are to have nothing to do with our decision making or our theology. This is a lie from hell. They have equated the salvation conversion EXPERIENCE down to an understanding.

Bologna! No wonder their churches are either dying or are growing much much slower than Pentecostals. They deny them any part of their humanity except intellect. Their "Logic and Reason" approach has become their only friend. But it mocks the very thing God created and He in fact shows of Himself. His emotions.

"You have captured my heart, my princess my bride. With one glance of your eyes, you have ravished me." Song of songs. This verse describes the emotional make-up of God towards his bride. His heart pitter-patters everytime we look at Him.

"For God so LOVED the world that He gave .............."

"The Lords ANGER burned against Israel.........."

"Jesus Wept."

How many verses do I have to quote just off the top of my head about Gods "feelings" before the emotional makeup of our person is considered valid in our decision making process? When does our experiences become a valid part of our filters in looking at scripture, life, and the way things are to be done?

No, the only part allowed in our decision making is the very thing that God described His enemy.

"The Carnal mind is at enmity with God." The way our logic and reason is is in fact an enemy of God. This is why faith comes from the heart and not from the mind. The supernatural does not COMPUTE. But you have brought it all back to the mind and reason, which fight God at every turn.

You see the blind see. "Were they really blind?" "Did Demons do it?" "It didn't happen because of mans prayer, but a soveriegn blip on the radar screen." "Maybe the power of the mind did it." (That one really exposes the worship of the "power of the mind." Christians put more faith in that power than God. If that is not self worship, I don't know what is.)

You hear of demoniacs being set free (This is toward Neb, since most Cessationist actually believe in Demonic possession.) and you figure they are putting on a show or are just mentally ill.

Someone claims on a faith healers program that they can walk suddenly, and your mind goes to the movie "Elmer Gantry" (A fictional book inspired it) and you already know that the sick person is a plant.

This is what your logic and reason has done to you. It has not made you a people of faith but a people of doubt. It has made you Cynical Pessimist, not Believing Optimist.

It has made you look at every verse in the Bible with filters to subtract the need for supernatural faith to move mountains because "Lets face it folks, that was a metaphor! We don't ever need to actually move mountains."

And when someone shares his experiences or feelings, they are null and void because it doesn't fit with your logic and reason. Please don't tell me it doesn't fit with the word, because it is only presumption on your part that has removed the gifts from our lives.

We choose to actually believe the Word as it is written in its clear form, without the hogwash of cynicism. We choose to believe every word as it is written. When Jesus said "Will I find faith on the earth!?" we knew what He was talking about. We have read Cessationist literature. We have seen you as you look at the sick and tell them "Sorry, but that is your lot in life. Just smile and wait for Jesus return or your death." And in Nebs case, "Your madness is not my problem because I can do nothing about it. I am not a Psychologist."

This is what your logic and reason has reduced your Christianity too.

Well the Word of God was written to show us how to counter the Kingdom of Darkness with the Kingdom of God. It was not written as the counter. It was written to show us how to encounter it.

If it was the counter, then it has failed. But it is not the counter. It is the instruction book for the ones called to encounter. It is our failings that are taking place. We are failing to actually believe God can and will encounter every aspect of the Kingdom of Darkness for the stupidest reason I ever heard. Because He once did, and He wrote a book about it, and therefore doesn't do it anymore. Absurd! Just an excuse for faithlessness. Just an out for Unbelief.

So stick to your reason and logic. And when your children get sick, find comfort in it. When your spouse has cancer, take hope in your logic and reason.

Me, I am going to the Throne Room of Heaven, and I will cry out to God till the day He answers my prayer or takes my child/spouse home. And guess what. I have seen Him NOT TAKE THEM HOME BECAUSE OF PRAYER WHEN THE DOCTORS SAID THEY WERE GONERS. But you go ahead with your logic. Or get desperate and call your neighborhood Pentecostal to come over. And if they quit because of their own lack of faith, call another. And if their faith quits, call another. Or better yet, you go to same throne room I have access too, and don't let go till the answer comes. Be a widow on the door of the unjust judge, and do not let go till you either get the answer that you came for, or your loved one goes home to be with Jesus.

But stop being a Spiritual Girlie Man with your faith.

[Scudbuddy]

Dave says,

"I knew a couple that had been members of that church AOG for twenty years. He was diagnosed with terminal cancer. For a year and a half they were told that if they had enough faith, he would be healed. After he passed on, she walked away from the church, from God, all of it. It was because here faith was put in another gospel. The last year and a half they should have been comforted with the truth of scripture, but instead they were fed lies. Now she thinks God is a myth, because He didn't deliver as the false teachers had promised for Him, going against His clear Word. You may say this is rare, but I beg to differ, this is happening all the time within the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement. These are very common accurances, and every one of them breaks my heart. So for every great thing you bring to the table that you have seen with your own eyes, I can match it with a tale of destruction that I have seen with my own eyes. I was there and I tried to pick up the peices as best I could. Finally, I could no longer be a pert of that church, way too much destruction."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A negative EXPERIENCE created your theology. Sorry, but that is what you just told me. You had been a Pentecostal, and seen the junk that some of them offer. You changed your mind about the gifts because of it.

By the way, I understand your disapointment with Pentecostals and Charismatics. That theology that puts the burden on the sick and their families is Demonic. The people least likely to have faith is the ones in the midst of the pain. I do believe most people do not get healed due to lack of faith. But that lack is natural. The evidence screams otherwise that they will be healed. The ones God ask to pick up the ball and run with it is the people who are doing the praying.

Jesus came on a scene that made Him angry. (Notice emotions on Jesus part) The disciples were trying to cast out demons out of a young man, and were having no luck. His exclamation was very telling. Frustration dripped from every word. "Will I find Faith on the earth.........." Then He told them something He had been telling them for quite sometime by His actions. "Some come out except by fasting and prayer."

Jesus didn't rebuke the boy. He rebuked the disciples. It was their lack, not the boys. One of the greatest mistakes the Pentecostals and Charismatics have made, (ecspecially WOF, though I love them as brothers) is that they equate all failure on the victims shoulders.

Now I do believe that God sometimes uses sickness and death in a persons life also. Joni is an example. But it has become a crutch for the Body to rely on too quickly so that they don't have to do the hard work of "knocking on the Judges door till the answer comes."

I believe for whatever reason God can take His time on healing. Maybe He doesn't heal right away because there is an incredible lack of faith on the prayers part. (The victims part is normal) But as they seek God, and persist in seeking Him, faith comes. Then the answer.

That AOG church failed you. The gifts didn't. And btw, I can point to just as many stories of God healing the sick. In fact I did. My experiences. But I also can point toward the word that is rich in verses about healing the sick, casting out demons, raising the dead, and our command to partake in this ministry. But a Cessationist can only point toward the "perfect" and presume it means the "Word." One word, and their bad experiences which they supposedly are not supposed to lean on to begin with.

You see, I can argue from a point of experience. I believe in their validity. You don't.

[johnP]

Botz.

I felt the anger and sadness was induced by the Holy Ghost which is totally biblical.

Was it? Is it?

Gotcha Scudbuddy.

But stop being a Spiritual Girlie Man with your faith.

Women have weak faith 'a'?

Maybe He doesn't heal right away because there is an incredible lack of faith on the prayers part.

That's wrong because faith is a gift and if faith is lacking it is because God has not supplied it. It is not something we can work up. The prayer of faith is given by God and the healer or whatever is going to know that this will be answered in the afirmative. Any other type of prayer that does not involve certainty leaves us with the probability of no.

johnp.

[Guest power2u]

And as I always say these are doctrine of Demons in attempt to make the Body of Christ Impotent.

If anybody can give ANY scripture thta forbids speaking in tongues then I will let you cast the devil out of me, but if youcan show me any scripture which says forbid not to speak in tongues then submit to the bible.

[Guest power2u]

http://home.regent.edu/ruthven/cess.html

A very good thesis.

[Scudbuddy]

Botz.

I felt the anger and sadness was induced by the Holy Ghost which is totally biblical.

Was it? Is it?

Gotcha Scudbuddy.

But stop being a Spiritual Girlie Man with your faith.

Women have weak faith 'a'?

Maybe He doesn't heal right away because there is an incredible lack of faith on the prayers part.

That's wrong because faith is a gift and if faith is lacking it is because God has not supplied it. It is not something we can work up. The prayer of faith is given by God and the healer or whatever is going to know that this will be answered in the afirmative. Any other type of prayer that does not involve certainty leaves us with the probability of no.

johnp.

You quote Botz, but then say Gotcha Scudbuddy. ???????

The "Spiritual Girlie Man" is as you know an Arnold line, and is attacking the wimpiness of faith. To tell you the truth, one of the most obvious truths about women is that they have great faith. But when someone is wimpy in their faith, and the above term is used, it is comparing their faiths strength to a sissy. But you knew that, and I am sure you are having as much fun with that remark as I had.

Now the last part of your statement leaves something to be desired. You see, if you are right about that, then Jesus would not have had the right to rebuke the disciples for their lack of faith. It would have been the fault of the Holy Spirit for not giving them faith.

If that was true, then there would be no need to preach on the need to build up your faith. All you can do is wait for it to come to you. Sorry, but there is way too much emphasis on the Scriptures part in obtaining faith. Jesus made it clear that we were to build up our faith through prayer and fasting. Through intimacy with Him. Through Knowing God.

Daniel 11:32 tells us where that kind of faith comes from.

"Those who know their God shall be strong and do great exploits."

Now the Gift of Faith in I Corinthians is a different matter. There is faith that God saves and then their is the gift of Faith that God moves mountains.

Here is how you actually know if you got that one. When the bible says that, and you say that it is a metaphor, you don't have it. But if you see that verse, and you run into literal mountains that are in the way of what God has commissioned you to do, and "you say to that Mountain, Be thou removed", you have the gift of Faith.

I know, Who has done that?

Church history records some saints that have actually done that. Some Irish saints, and though I can't remember the name, a middle-eastern saint. But when I say that, the first thing that comes to the mind of most Christians is "legend."

And that is why I detest logic and reason. It is unbelief excused by philosophy and validated by science. And it is at enmity with God.

So put yourself to the test. When the word says "Move mountains" is it a metaphor or not?

If I run into a mountain in the way of Gods direction, I am speaking to some rocks.

[Guest power2u]

Dave says,

"I knew a couple that had been members of that church AOG for twenty years. He was diagnosed with terminal cancer. For a year and a half they were told that if they had enough faith, he would be healed. After he passed on, she walked away from the church, from God, all of it. It was because here faith was put in another gospel. The last year and a half they should have been comforted with the truth of scripture, but instead they were fed lies. Now she thinks God is a myth, because He didn't deliver as the false teachers had promised for Him, going against His clear Word. You may say this is rare, but I beg to differ, this is happening all the time within the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement. These are very common accurances, and every one of them breaks my heart. So for every great thing you bring to the table that you have seen with your own eyes, I can match it with a tale of destruction that I have seen with my own eyes. I was there and I tried to pick up the peices as best I could. Finally, I could no longer be a pert of that church, way too much destruction."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A negative EXPERIENCE created your theology. Sorry, but that is what you just told me. You had been a Pentecostal, and seen the junk that some of them offer. You changed your mind about the gifts because of it.

By the way, I understand your disapointment with Pentecostals and Charismatics. That theology that puts the burden on the sick and their families is Demonic. The people least likely to have faith is the ones in the midst of the pain. I do believe most people do not get healed due to lack of faith. But that lack is natural. The evidence screams otherwise that they will be healed. The ones God ask to pick up the ball and run with it is the people who are doing the praying.

Jesus came on a scene that made Him angry. (Notice emotions on Jesus part) The disciples were trying to cast out demons out of a young man, and were having no luck. His exclamation was very telling. Frustration dripped from every word. "Will I find Faith on the earth.........." Then He told them something He had been telling them for quite sometime by His actions. "Some come out except by fasting and prayer."

Jesus didn't rebuke the boy. He rebuked the disciples. It was their lack, not the boys. One of the greatest mistakes the Pentecostals and Charismatics have made, (ecspecially WOF, though I love them as brothers) is that they equate all failure on the victims shoulders.

Now I do believe that God sometimes uses sickness and death in a persons life also. Joni is an example. But it has become a crutch for the Body to rely on too quickly so that they don't have to do the hard work of "knocking on the Judges door till the answer comes."

I believe for whatever reason God can take His time on healing. Maybe He doesn't heal right away because there is an incredible lack of faith on the prayers part. (The victims part is normal) But as they seek God, and persist in seeking Him, faith comes. Then the answer.

That AOG church failed you. The gifts didn't. And btw, I can point to just as many stories of God healing the sick. In fact I did. My experiences. But I also can point toward the word that is rich in verses about healing the sick, casting out demons, raising the dead, and our command to partake in this ministry. But a Cessationist can only point toward the "perfect" and presume it means the "Word." One word, and their bad experiences which they supposedly are not supposed to lean on to begin with.

You see, I can argue from a point of experience. I believe in their validity. You don't.

Scudy you know what disturbes me is that alot of these cessationist put down experience as irrational but the truth be told it is by thier experience or lack there of that that come up with their faulty anti-biblical position of cessationism.

So it all has to do with experience.

[Dave123]

One of the deceptions put on the Body of Christ is to deny our emotions and experiences. They are to have nothing to do with our decision making or our theology. This is a lie from hell. They have equated the salvation conversion EXPERIENCE down to an understanding.

I never said I deny them. I just don't form doctrines from my feelings then ask others to trust in my feelings. I think I was clear on that, and I think you knew that.

"The Carnal mind is at enmity with God." The way our logic and reason is is in fact an enemy of God.

Which is my whole point. This is why we go to His Word. Thankyou.

You hear of demoniacs being set free (This is toward Neb, since most Cessationist actually believe in Demonic possession.) and you figure they are putting on a show or are just mentally ill.

I do too, but you shouldn't read my posts like you read the Word of God. You assume way too much, Scud.

Someone claims on a faith healers program that they can walk suddenly, and your mind goes to the movie "Elmer Gantry" (A fictional book inspired it) and you already know that the sick person is a plant.

You see, this is the bulk of your proof, "they said they saw" "they told me it happened" Did you ever stop to consider that of the healing that is actually a miracle was answered prayer, and not the gift of healing? The Bible sets clear standards of the true gift, but you ignore that. You continue to mix up people getting prayers answered with the gift of healing i.e. the ability to heal instantly, with a touch or a word, completely, organic diseases (not just back ackes), everyone. How many of your faith healers pass the test?

This is what your logic and reason has done to you. It has not made you a people of faith but a people of doubt. It has made you Cynical Pessimist, not Believing Optimist.

"test everything" God said it, it's one of those simple things in scripture that you talk about. "Test the spirits"

We choose to actually believe the Word as it is written in its clear form, without the hogwash of cynicism. We choose to believe every word as it is written.

Yes believe the Word as it is written I agree, I wonder what milk and solid food means then, hmmmm?

We have seen you as you look at the sick and tell them "Sorry, but that is your lot in life. Just smile and wait for Jesus return or your death." And in Nebs case, "Your madness is not my problem because I can do nothing about it. I am not a Psychologist."

You know I never said or claimed to believe that, you are showing the weakness in your arguement when you have to resort to misrepresenting me in every one of your posts, it's getting tiring.

If it was the counter, then it has failed. But it is not the counter. It is the instruction book for the ones called to encounter. It is our failings that are taking place. We are failing to actually believe God can and will encounter every aspect of the Kingdom of Darkness for the stupidest reason I ever heard. Because He once did, and He wrote a book about it, and therefore doesn't do it anymore. Absurd! Just an excuse for faithlessness. Just an out for Unbelief.

Do you hear that? It's the sound of yet another straw man being built. Is this all you have?

So stick to your reason and logic. And when your children get sick, find comfort in it. When your spouse has cancer, take hope in your logic and reason.

"Reason and logic" = trusting God's Word. What a shame that you cannot be honest with me or yourself.

A negative EXPERIENCE created your theology. Sorry, but that is what you just told me. You had been a Pentecostal, and seen the junk that some of them offer. You changed your mind about the gifts because of it.

I'm only showing you that what you are saying is great, has another side to it, one that they keep hidden. You can tell a tree by it's fruit. I always go to scripture, always.

But stop being a Spiritual Girlie Man with your faith.

Truth hurts, You need to ask yourself why and grow up.

[johnP]

Scudbuddy.

...Arnold line...

What's an Arnold line?

But when someone is wimpy in their faith, and the above term is used, it is comparing their faiths strength to a sissy.

Exellent answer. I don't think it works. A man is called a sissy because he is not masculine, strong, he is regarded as feminine. A girl. It's an attack on weaker brothers who need support not jibes. You do not edify with 'wimpy'. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. Rom 14:4.

...Jesus would not have had the right to rebuke the disciples for their lack of faith.

Oh yes He would. Lack of faith is part of our fallen nature. Our fallen nature had nothing to do with us. we found ourselves here like this yet we are still held responsible.

God is not obligated to give faith but He is able to punish the lack of it.

If that was true, then there would be no need to preach...

Now we are venturing into Calvinism proper and I refrain.

There is faith that God saves and then their is the gift of Faith that God moves mountains.

The same. One Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. Eph 4:5.

Church history records...

Mine it does.

If I run into a mountain in the way of Gods direction, I am speaking to some rocks.

Faith moves mountains that we do not dispute.

johnp.