Have the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased?

[johnP]

Sorry LT.

I got this wrong;

I don't believe the gifts have gone. I was just contrasting what was being said about gifts, that they are of first importance when they are a part of Christianity and different for everyone.

I meant to say;

I don't believe the gifts have gone. I was just contrasting what was being said about gifts, that they were being put over as of the first importance when in fact they are a part of Christianity and the gifts are different for everyone.

johnp.

[johnP]

Scubuddy. Hope you have had a good kip.

This argument wasn't taking place then.

Because they had ceased and they knew it?

2. Logic and reason aren't gifts if they are used to bring doubt and unbelief. When you approach the supernatural with logic and reason where you cannot apply very easily the scientific approach to collect Empirical evidence, it becomes your enemy.

Logic and reason aren't gifts if they are used to bring doubt and unbelief.

Logic and reason remain a gift whichever way they are used or misused.

But what is logic and reason. Come let us reason together says the Lord. He says believe Me. I believe Him and I find that it accords with my reason and is the logical path to take.

But you say they are gifts, that's good. I believe they are a valuable aid in discernment.

It's logical to make no judgement on a thing you have not witnessed and can not verify sufficiently. To believe what a man tells me is unreasonable to my mind. Not that I do not believe them. I see them as in error for even reporting what they have seen with the intention of bringing that forward as evidence to support scripture.

I have recognised that I am a cold fish when it comes to what other people term 'Worship'.

When you approach the supernatural with logic and reason where you cannot apply very easily the scientific approach to collect Empirical evidence, it becomes your enemy.

But I do apply the scientific tests. A stranger tells me God put new eyeballs into his head. I say fine. I am not called to believe him. I will given the chance come to know him. That's the test.

They prayed for one of ours this morning in church. A bad ear. No Elder took her aside, 'Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord.'

I have started to address this failing. My cold came in useful. What is that oil then is it any old oil?

(I've just looked up 'sick' in the NIV and have found 4 mentions of 'sick' in the OT and 39 in the New. I thought I'd mention it.)

Since God refuses to play that game, I believe that I can't do that.

So you say that the gifts are under His control and I have no problem with that.

Please don't ask me why God healed the child.

You have me wrong. I would never dream of asking such a question. That would be judging God. He does as He pleases.

Please don't ask me why God healed the child. It is a mystery to me. I am not God. Why heal a future killer? Only God knows.

I am a Calvinist. Our God is Sovereign. I am glad you see this in the incident.

4.I don't delink them.

Oh no you didn't! I withdraw my slanderous accussation and apologise grovelling backwards.

These second century Fathers were either personally trained by men like John in the latter part of the first century, or trained by men who were discipled by men like John.

Well I never knew that! Witnesses who wrote about the Apostles. I'll have to look them up should be an interesting read. But my remark stands. We are to make up our own minds with scripture. If we get it wrong it is our error. My errors are mine not some long dead man's. I think history is useful to a point. Still it is we who are playing our part and scripture is the only rule in town.

The men who canonized scripture were into signs and wonders also.

Men and subject to their errors. Stop bringing man forward they carry little weight.

They were like you and me. God used them for His autobiography, to make sure it was right He controlled the decision making. They were not special. We are all saints and all like Elijah.

Sorry if you think I am judging "Gods anointed", but I am not. Just stating the facts.

Fat and lazy is not stating facts it is a judgement on Christ's Church. His body. You are in there do you include yourself as fat and lazy? Is this selfrighteousness?

But worse you attack the body of which Christ is Head. Does the Head not control the body? Then it is exactly where He wants it and to say different is to judge God. Elijah did that! God told Him His Church was safe and that he was not to be concerned.

I am blunt without apology.

Tell it as you believe it. We can't be apolgetic if we believe that is what God says. That would be apologising for God. Admit when we are wrong though.

...and their leeching off society in the name of their addiction.

Yes but there are reasons. It's not as cut and dried as that. I have a lot to say on the subject. The problem is manageable but no one dares take a chance on improving the situation. Maybe a subject for the future when we want to test our metal.

...anointed...

All Christians are anointed.

This is why most pastors do not preach or teach about evangelism.

You know most? The bible says go and make disciples. If people won't listen to scripture what the pastor going to do? Are you suggesting that the church organise to evangelise. It is fine if the church wants to but not the pastor. We control our leaders and we are under no authority but scripture. But I'm not sure I got the question right.

...ALL flesh...

In the same way the anti-Christ has the Spirit poured out on him? You don't mean 'all' do you? You mean all types but again we drift into Calvinism.

And the depth of their belief is much stronger than the average Westerner.

No you sit in judgement and your judgement is false. You can tell can you the man's heart? I think not but you are into appearance are you not.

Persecution and starvation does that to a person.

No faith comes from God. Are you saying that you can only have faith in abundance when you are starving? Have none in the West got problems? Adversity is our lot wherever we are. We should all learn to praise Him for the bad as well as the good. He brings both.

Now I don't believe that meant that all would be saved. I believe that that "all" is referring to a great pouring out upon all those who are saved.

No but you used it has such. You were trying to prove numbers by it.

So John, I know I got off on some rabbit trails there.

Getting to know each other brother.

...and I hope you find some gems.

The gem is talking to you about Jesus. That's a sparkly thing.

Wouldn't work for you though.

johnp.

[Dave123]

Hi Scud

I won't go over all that stuff again. I refuse to play the straw man game any longer. You have avoided all my questions, so i'll make it easier.

Can you put it writing, plainly, the purpose for the gifts of healing, miracles, tongues and prophecy, and how do you tell the difference between the true and the false?

In Christ

Dave

[Scudbuddy]

Scubuddy. Hope you have had a good kip.

This argument wasn't taking place then.

Because they had ceased and they knew it?

2. Logic and reason aren't gifts if they are used to bring doubt and unbelief. When you approach the supernatural with logic and reason where you cannot apply very easily the scientific approach to collect Empirical evidence, it becomes your enemy.

Logic and reason aren't gifts if they are used to bring doubt and unbelief.

Logic and reason remain a gift whichever way they are used or misused.

But what is logic and reason. Come let us reason together says the Lord. He says believe Me. I believe Him and I find that it accords with my reason and is the logical path to take.

But you say they are gifts, that's good. I believe they are a valuable aid in discernment.

It's logical to make no judgement on a thing you have not witnessed and can not verify sufficiently. To believe what a man tells me is unreasonable to my mind. Not that I do not believe them. I see them as in error for even reporting what they have seen with the intention of bringing that forward as evidence to support scripture.

I have recognised that I am a cold fish when it comes to what other people term 'Worship'.

When you approach the supernatural with logic and reason where you cannot apply very easily the scientific approach to collect Empirical evidence, it becomes your enemy.

But I do apply the scientific tests. A stranger tells me God put new eyeballs into his head. I say fine. I am not called to believe him. I will given the chance come to know him. That's the test.

They prayed for one of ours this morning in church. A bad ear. No Elder took her aside, 'Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord.'

I have started to address this failing. My cold came in useful. What is that oil then is it any old oil?

(I've just looked up 'sick' in the NIV and have found 4 mentions of 'sick' in the OT and 39 in the New. I thought I'd mention it.)

Since God refuses to play that game, I believe that I can't do that.

So you say that the gifts are under His control and I have no problem with that.

Please don't ask me why God healed the child.

You have me wrong. I would never dream of asking such a question. That would be judging God. He does as He pleases.

Please don't ask me why God healed the child. It is a mystery to me. I am not God. Why heal a future killer? Only God knows.

I am a Calvinist. Our God is Sovereign. I am glad you see this in the incident.

4.I don't delink them.

Oh no you didn't! I withdraw my slanderous accussation and apologise grovelling backwards.

These second century Fathers were either personally trained by men like John in the latter part of the first century, or trained by men who were discipled by men like John.

Well I never knew that! Witnesses who wrote about the Apostles. I'll have to look them up should be an interesting read. But my remark stands. We are to make up our own minds with scripture. If we get it wrong it is our error. My errors are mine not some long dead man's. I think history is useful to a point. Still it is we who are playing our part and scripture is the only rule in town.

The men who canonized scripture were into signs and wonders also.

Men and subject to their errors. Stop bringing man forward they carry little weight.

They were like you and me. God used them for His autobiography, to make sure it was right He controlled the decision making. They were not special. We are all saints and all like Elijah.

Sorry if you think I am judging "Gods anointed", but I am not. Just stating the facts.

Fat and lazy is not stating facts it is a judgement on Christ's Church. His body. You are in there do you include yourself as fat and lazy? Is this selfrighteousness?

But worse you attack the body of which Christ is Head. Does the Head not control the body? Then it is exactly where He wants it and to say different is to judge God. Elijah did that! God told Him His Church was safe and that he was not to be concerned.

I am blunt without apology.

Tell it as you believe it. We can't be apolgetic if we believe that is what God says. That would be apologising for God. Admit when we are wrong though.

...and their leeching off society in the name of their addiction.

Yes but there are reasons. It's not as cut and dried as that. I have a lot to say on the subject. The problem is manageable but no one dares take a chance on improving the situation. Maybe a subject for the future when we want to test our metal.

...anointed...

All Christians are anointed.

This is why most pastors do not preach or teach about evangelism.

You know most? The bible says go and make disciples. If people won't listen to scripture what the pastor going to do? Are you suggesting that the church organise to evangelise. It is fine if the church wants to but not the pastor. We control our leaders and we are under no authority but scripture. But I'm not sure I got the question right.

...ALL flesh...

In the same way the anti-Christ has the Spirit poured out on him? You don't mean 'all' do you? You mean all types but again we drift into Calvinism.

And the depth of their belief is much stronger than the average Westerner.

No you sit in judgement and your judgement is false. You can tell can you the man's heart? I think not but you are into appearance are you not.

Persecution and starvation does that to a person.

No faith comes from God. Are you saying that you can only have faith in abundance when you are starving? Have none in the West got problems? Adversity is our lot wherever we are. We should all learn to praise Him for the bad as well as the good. He brings both.

Now I don't believe that meant that all would be saved. I believe that that "all" is referring to a great pouring out upon all those who are saved.

No but you used it has such. You were trying to prove numbers by it.

So John, I know I got off on some rabbit trails there.

Getting to know each other brother.

...and I hope you find some gems.

The gem is talking to you about Jesus. That's a sparkly thing.

Wouldn't work for you though.

johnp.

Most of what you say we have come to an agreement. I am right and you are wrong.

For the few things that we still aren't seeing exactly my way, I will address until you either repent, or I wear you out. (FYI, repent now. It will be much easier. I am not only long winded, but I can do it again and again and again. Nasty part of my personality. Persistently annoying. I am the of annoying. I once bugged a guy off one forum who had been there much longer than I had. So, if you know what is good for you, just write back, "Whatever Scudbuddy says is truth. I am wrong, and he is right. Therefore now I am right." This will save you from so much annoyance. )

No, but seriously. I do not share in the idea that just because someone goes to church, and claims to be part of the body, that they are immune from critiques. If you believed that, you would not critique me for saying so. It is ok to point out problems that plague the Body of Christ here in America. I have ministered alot over seas, and have seen incredible differences between the two churches. But if you do not believe me, you are more than welcome to check out some of the Empirical evidence to back me up.

Several Church studies on Church Growth confirm my opinion. Fuller Theological seminary is one of those studies. The differences include:

1.A more active evangelistic lifestyle

2.A deeper, more faithful devotional time

3.More unity in the faith with their church members and with other denominations. (This is usually the case, but their are some exceptions. But those exceptions usually have something to do with thee amount of influence Americans have over them. The more influence, the less unity.

4.More participation in ministry per congregant. Less pew sitting

Some of the other findings will only insult Cessationist point of view because they have to deal with Signs and wonders and its' effect on church growth. Very significant effect.

Mostly I will say, and this would be true in America if it happened, is that persecution seperates the fence sitters, and forces personal growth on a Christian. In fact, there have been many Third world christians who have come to America, and found it harder to live for God here then where they came from.

It is true. America has a unique enviornment for Christians. Our freedom has brought alot of "little gods" into our midst. It is easy to be fat and lazy in this country. Entertainment sucks us into that lifestyle of watching instead of participating. Now, I am not going to stereotype all of us this way. I am saying though, that it is a much greater problem here than overseas.

Here you are lucky to get people to fellowship twice a week. This is why you can have 1,000 on Sunday morning and 50 on Sunday evening. Whereever I have preached overseas, it is just as crowded in the evenings as it is in the morning. And Monday thru Saturday also. They are so hungry for God. Young people are swamping the churches. They want more of Jesus.

If you think I am flippantly making these judgements, you are wrong. Those conclusions have come from over 20 years of pastoring and evangelizing. And I dare say, I do not know of one pastor who has been overseas who would disagree with me. I am not saying they are not out there. I am saying I do not know them. We talk about it all the time. The difference is stunning.

The last thing is this. If I was your boss, and you worked hard for me, you would love working for me. I don't just ask for hard work, and not reward it. I reward it big time. I believe in honest pay for honest work.

Once I was asked by my company to save an account they had with this huge company. I was the Training officer for Security for this major Security company. This company was down to their last hope, and I was it. They had about 40 officers, and half were trouble. So I went in their undercover as a brand new officer to check it out. I had each man show me his duties. It took about a week. The next week I showed up with Captains bars on, and the lazy good for nothings saw it, and about wet themselves. They knew the gig was up. I fired half the officers, and brought in my own people. But the ones I kept, I went to bat for.

I told the Company that was contracting out my company that if they wanted a good security team working for them, they had to pay right. I upped their pay by $3 an hour. This was in 1989, so it was a huge raise. But these men and women always showed up to work, and worked hard for me, and rarely was sick. We never had to pay overtime again. Our training cost which had been phenomenal went down to nothing. At the end of the year our payroll was lower than any other company contract that they had. It actually cost them less to pay significantly more. And each one of my guards loved me. I worked as hard for them, as they did for me. But the ones I fired hated me. I confronted their evil, and enjoyed doing it. These men looked for ways to screw that company. And they did. So when I fired them, I smiled like I meant it. And I did.

So you would love me as a boss. I can tell you are a hard worker. It is in your blood. Men who have your kind of depth in their writings and care for people didn't get it by sitting on their touche. Tell me if I am wrong. And that same personal insight into your life without ever meeting you is the same thing I have as a pastor when I deal with fat and lazy christians. I do try to help them along in that area, but I don't ignore it. As an evangelist I do the same thing. Confront evil, even if it is in the house. No, especially if it is in the house. :hug:

[johnP]

Scudbuddy.

...you either repent, or I wear you out.

You may be able to talk the hind legs off a donkey but only I can convince it to get up and walk away!

No, but seriously. I do not share in the idea that just because someone goes to church, and claims to be part of the body, that they are immune from critiques.

No, nor do I. Correction, especially when taken, builds the Church up. Fat and lazy has the opposite effect.

...that it is a much greater problem here than overseas.

But we all have problems. Over there you become a thief to stay alive. To feed yourself. We are all sinners.

Tell me if I am wrong.

Ah a sneaky trick to try and make me agree with you!

I'm a working class hero me, I would never agree with the boss except on scripture.

johnp.

[Scudbuddy]

Scudbuddy.

...you either repent, or I wear you out.

You may be able to talk the hind legs off a donkey but only I can convince it to get up and walk away!

No, but seriously. I do not share in the idea that just because someone goes to church, and claims to be part of the body, that they are immune from critiques.

No, nor do I. Correction, especially when taken, builds the Church up. Fat and lazy has the opposite effect.

...that it is a much greater problem here than overseas.

But we all have problems. Over there you become a thief to stay alive. To feed yourself. We are all sinners.

Tell me if I am wrong.

Ah a sneaky trick to try and make me agree with you!

I'm a working class hero me, I would never agree with the boss except on scripture.

johnp.

Oh, you are good. I am going to have to pull out my big weapon. So where do I send my check?

[His son]

Quote:

Because they had ceased and they knew it?

I guess millions of Christians all over this world must not have heard the orders to quit doing those miracles cause I hear about new ones every day. So they didn't know what they were talking about.

[Botz]

His Son...

I guess millions of Christians all over this world must not have heard the orders to quit doing those miracles cause I hear about new ones every day. So they didn't know what they were talking about.

Absolutely!!

I can only stress that some have ears but cannot hear.

Some have eyes but cannot see.

In the meantime the Gospel of the Kingdom will be preached and people will be saved,healed and delivered curtesy of the Holy Ghost.

The Gospel into which we have been called is not one of word only...but the dynamite of the Holy Ghost to blast people into the Kingdom.

Galations 1:6 I marvel that ye are so quickly removing from him that called you in the grace of Christ unto a different gospel;

Gal 1:7 which is not another gospel only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

2Co 11:1 Would that ye could bear with me in a little foolishness: but indeed ye do bear with me.

2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with a godly jealousy: for I espoused you to one husband, that I might present you as a pure virgin to Christ.

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve in his craftiness, your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity and the purity that is toward Christ.

2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we did not preach, or if ye receive a different spirit, which ye did not receive, or a different gospel, which ye did not accept, ye do well to bear with him.

We are to preach the whole Gospel.

[Dave123]

Hi Scud

I won't go over all that stuff again. I refuse to play the straw man game any longer. You have avoided all my questions, so i'll make it easier.

Can you put it writing, plainly, the purpose for the gifts of healing, miracles, tongues and prophecy, and how do you tell the difference between the true and the false?

In Christ

Dave

Is this so hard, or do you have something to hide, Scud?

Your faith and hope revolve around these things, yet you don't know what they are?

Please take the time to be plain and clear with these simple truths. Tell what they were and what they were for, that should not be all that difficult.

P.S. Have you thrown your Bible away yet?

[Scudbuddy]

Hi Scud

I won't go over all that stuff again. I refuse to play the straw man game any longer. You have avoided all my questions, so i'll make it easier.

Can you put it writing, plainly, the purpose for the gifts of healing, miracles, tongues and prophecy, and how do you tell the difference between the true and the false?

In Christ

Dave

Is this so hard, or do you have something to hide, Scud?

Your faith and hope revolve around these things, yet you don't know what they are?

Please take the time to be plain and clear with these simple truths. Tell what they were and what they were for, that should not be all that difficult.

P.S. Have you thrown your Bible away yet?

I am sorry brother. I missed that post. I will be coming back later tonight to answer you. Honestly, I missed that post. There are so many I am trying to answer all over the board. Not avoiding you at all.