Have the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased?

[johnP]

Who said the originals were perfect scud old buddy. Is this assumption I see before me?

In Christ.

johnp.

[Dave123]

Hey, Scud

Nice try, but you answered someone elses post, not mine. I didn't realise this until later in the day. So i'll waite for your reply.

The New Testament promises miracles to all believers without restriction or discrimination. Jesus promised that ALL believers could speak in tongues and experience other miracles (Mark 16:17-18).

1 Cor. 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

The implied answer is no.

Miracles and tongues are God's gift to the whole church (I Corinthians 12:8-10, 28).

Apostles were gifts to the Church too, Do you believe we still have aposles?

(3)False:-- "Miracles were only for the days of the apostles."

The passages cited above discredit this statement, for none specify a time limitation. To the contrary, each was given to all believers or to the church as a whole without restriction as to time. Paul wrote I Corinthians to the entire church of all ages, addressing it "unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours" (I Corinthians 1:2). He expressed confidence that they would "come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (I Corinthians 1:7). That book discusses the gifts of the Spirit, including gifts of healing, working of miracles, and kinds of tongues (I Corinthians 12:8-10), 50 Paul clearly expected the church to retain and properly use all the spiritual gifts until Christ's return.

Through human agency the sign gifts are gone. Can you specify the exact date Jesus died on the cross? If not, does this mean that you cannot eccept it as truth?

Everyone agrees that the Great Commission applies to the church today, and so must its fulfillment. The Early Church fulfilled it: "And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following" (Mark 16:20); "God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will" (Hebrews 2:4). If we have the same Lord, the same commission, the same gospel, the same faith, and the same needy world, surely we will have the same signs accompanying and confirming our message.

Falty reasoning. All do not have the same gifts. Your arguement is shattered at this point and you lose all credibility. The Bible is it's own conformation. The Greeks seek wisdom and the Jews seek a sign, but we preach Christ crucified.

Tongues Have Not Ceased

Yes, they have.

(1) The spiritual gifts, including tongues, will reside in the church until the second coming of Christ (I Corinthians 1:2, 7).

I don't know what your thinking is here, but you are reading way too much into that verse. If you can define that verse in that way, than nothing will stop you from making any verse say anything.

(2) This being so, it is logical to identify "that which is perfect" with Jesus Christ or, more specifically, with the Second Coming of Christ. The Greek word translated as "perfect" is teleion, which is neuter singular, but the Greek language always refers to the Scriptures in the feminine plural.

Wrong again, but still, the perfect has nothing to do with tongues, as I have shown already.

(3) Tongues will cease at the same time as prophecy and knowledge, according to verse 8. Prophecy includes inspired preaching, praising, and testifying. Obviously the church still has prophecy and knowledge.

False, based on incorrecly assuming that tongues will end when the perfect comes, and your incorrect definition of perfect.

(4) The Bible and miracles do not have interchangeable functions. The Bible presents the Word of God in written form, but God still uses miracles, signs, and spiritual gifts to confirm the Word (Mark 16:20; Hebrews 2:4).

Miracles were common in scripture in three time periods, all being about one hundred years each. So miracles, even in scripture, are common for three hundred years total out of four thousand. Each time God was revealing His written word. Now we have the faith once for all delivered. No more need for confirming miracles because His word is it's own confermation.

(5) In I Corinthians 13:11-13, Paul compared levels of spiritual growth to physical and mental growth, but he did not label tongues as childish. He compared our partial knowledge to the perfect knowledge we shall have when Christ returns. If we have already reached the ultimate stage, then we are more mature than Paul was, for he died before the completion of the New Testament. If speaking in tongues be childish, Paul never left the childish stage, for he continually spoke in tongues (I Corinthians 14:18).

The perfect is the heavenly state of believers. Just to ignore it doesn't make it go away, I will keep reposting it if necessary.

(6) The New Testament is God's Word, but we are not yet perfect, nor is the world perfect. Perfection will come only after Christ returns.

Please explain why we still have prophecy and knowledge in the tribulation and Kingdom, after the time you say they should have ceased.

[Dave123]

Scud, the fruit is also how you handle the Word of God.

[Dave123]

13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

We have two Greek verbs being used here.

"katargeo" This is the Greek verb used to describe what will happen to prophecy and knowledge.

"pauo" This is the Greek verb being used to describe what will happen to tongues.

"katargeo" means to "reduce to inactivity" or to "abolish" Both forms of the verb in verse 8 , and in verse 10, are passive; that is, something or someone will cause them to stop. That something is the coming of the "Perfect".

"pauo" means "to stop, to come to an end". Which when used of persons, indicates intentional, voluntary action upon oneself. Used of inanimate objects it indicates reflexive, self-causing action. The cause comes from within; it is built in.

So we have two different ways of these three gifts being stopped.

The gifts of prophecy and knowledge will stop when the "perfect comes".

The gift of tongues will cause itself to stop.

Note; in 13:9-13, tongues are not mentioned. Also note the highlighted parts.

13:9

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. (no tongues)

13:10

But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (Note; that only the verb katargeo is used here. "done away")

13:11

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

13:12

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13:13

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity

Does the closed cannon of scripture= the perfect?

(At one time I believed this to be true)

But now, here are some reasons I have a problem with that:

A) That idea would have been meaningless to the Corinthians.

Nowhere in this letter (1 Corinthians) does Paul mention or allude to such a scriptural completion. Spiritual and moral perfection would have been the way they would have taken that.(Math.5:48) Completed holiness, our one day becoming what God now counts or reckons us to be.

B) If the perfect refers to the completion of Scripture, Then prophecy and knowledge have already been stopped, the two most important gifts for proclaiming, interpreting, and understanding Scripture. (The gift of prophecy was only partly used for revelation)

C) Prophecy will be active in the Kingdom age. (Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17).

D) Prior to the Kingdom, during the Tribulation, God will raise up two great prophetic witnesses who "Will prophecy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth". (Rev. 11:3)

E) We will see "face to face" (1 Cor.13:12).

F) No Christian, before or after the completion of the New Testament has known the Lord as he has "been fully known".

G) The verb "katargeo" means to be abolished completely and finally. An interruption of prophecy would not fit Paul's point here, which is to show the permanency of love over the temporariness of gifts. (For those who believe it will stop and then start again)

All other popular interpretations of "the perfect" Must pass the test, which eliminates the rapture, the maturing Church, and the second coming.

The "perfect" is the eternal, heavenly state of believers.

The eternal state allows for the neuter form of the "perfect" and allows for the continuation of knowledge and prophecy during the church age, the tribulation, and the kingdom. It fits the context of Paul's emphasis on the permanence of love. It also fits his mention of our then seeing "face to face", which will come about only with our glorification, when we will be illumined by the very glory of God Himself (Rev. 21:23). Finally, again, only in heaven will we "Know fully just as [we] also have been fully known" (1 Cor. 13:12).

[Dave123]

Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.

Tongues are for a sign, which requires two people, the gifted and the unbelieving Jew. All the secondary benefits of tongues were so God would stay true to His Word not be the "author of confusion", hence the gift of interpretation. While the sign was being given to the Jews there would be believers standing around not knowing what was being said. God gave the gift of interpretation so there would be no confusion, everyone was edified. The primary purpose was the sign, since that judgment fell, tongues were no longer needed and ceased as the Bible said it would.

All anyone should need to know is that tongues are for unbelievers, not believers. Nowhere in scripture are we taught to diconnect our minds in prayer or anything else. Love your Lord God with all your Mind.

Apart from the primary purpose of tongues, which Paul said was to be a sign to unbelievers, the secondary uses for tongues serve no benefit above and beyond that which we can all accomplish without tongues. When the sign aspect of tongues became absent, the secondary uses became expendable.

I think we can all agree that there is no such sign being given today like we read about in Acts. The churches deny it by their actions, and every individual effort to cross the language barriar in a miraculous way has failed. The secondary uses were put up with because of the sign.

The personal prayer language is unbiblical and very selfish. Seek to edify the Church, not yourself. Wasn't this Pauls whole point to begin with?

Dave

[Dave123]

"Being filled with the spirit must be distinguished from being baptized with the spirit. The apostle Paul carefully defines the baptism with the spirit as that act of Christ by which He places believers into His body (Rom. 6:4-6; 1Cor.12:13; Gal. 3:27). In contrast to much errant teaching today, the New Testament nowhere commands believers to seek the baptism with the Holy Spirit. It is a sovereign, single, unrepeatable act on Gods part, and is no more an experience than are its companions justification and adoption. Although some wrongly view the baptism with the Spirit as the initiation into the ranks of the spiritual elite, nothing could be further from the truth. The purpose of the baptism with the spirit is not to divide the body of Christ, but to unify it. As Paul wrote to the Corinthians, through the baptism with the Spirit "we were all baptized into one body" (1 Cor. 12:13; cf. Gal.3:26-27; Eph. 4:4-6)

Unlike the baptism with the Spirit, being filled with the Spirit is an experience and should be continuous. Although filled initially on the day of Pentecost, Peter was filled again in Acts 4:8. Many of the same people filled with the Spirit in Acts 2 were filled again in Acts 4:31. Acts 6:5 describes Stephen as a man "full of faith and the Holy Spirit," yet Acts 7:55 records his being filled again. Paul was filled with the Spirit in Acts 9:17 and again in Acts 13:9.

While there is no command in scripture to be baptized with the Spirit, believers are commanded to be filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18 ). The grammatical construction of that passage indicates believers are to be continuously being filled with the Spirit. Those who would be filled with the Spirit must first empty themselves. That involves confession of sin and dying to selfishness and self will. To be filled with the Holy Spirit is to consciously practice the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ and to have a mind saturated with the Word of God. Colossians 3:16-25 delineates the results of "letting the word of Christ richly dwell" in us. They are the same ones that result from the filling of the Spirit (Eph. 5:19-33). As believers yield the moment by moment decisions of life to His control, they "walk by the Spirit" (Gal. 5:16). The baptism of the Spirit grants the power that the filling with the Spirit unleashes." (Macarthur)

[Dave123]

Tongues in the OT.

GENESIS 11

In this important chapter describing the judgment upon Babel, tongues are mentioned for the very first time. Prior to Genesis 11 tongues (plural) did not exist! There was only one tongue throughout the inhabited earth: "And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech" (Genesis 11:1). Foreign tongues made their first historical appearance in Genesis 11.

God has a message for the people. Following the great Genesis flood, God gave this simple command to Noah and his sons: "Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth" (Genesis 9:1; cf. Genesis 9:7) How would the descendants of Noah respond to this divine command?

The people refuse to listen to God. Instead of filling the earth as God had said, the people refused to obey. In their opposition to God

[Scudbuddy]

Who said the originals were perfect scud old buddy. Is this assumption I see before me?

In Christ.

johnp.

John,

You are right. It is assumed, although I think it is a good assumption. No Empirical evidence though. What is not assumed is that the manuscripts we have are not "perfect." Reliable, but not perfect. And even Evangelical scholars who have seen the actual manuscripts admit that.

[Scudbuddy]

Dave says,

"Miracles were common in scripture in three time periods, all being about one hundred years each. So miracles, even in scripture, are common for three hundred years total out of four thousand. Each time God was revealing His written word. Now we have the faith once for all delivered. No more need for confirming miracles because His word is it's own confirmation."

Scudbuddy replies,

Almost every chapter in the bible has at least one miracle in it. Almost every chapter! Find 10 that don't. Name the chapter. List it. I bet if you look close, even those had some miracle in it. Sometimes God is so naturally supernatural we don't catch it.

Such as Nathan rebukes David for adultery. Word of knowledge.

The Bible is a compilation of stories that confirm God is God.

I think one of the mistakes Pentecostals have made is to allow for Cessationist to put the burden of proving the scriptures support miracles. The ball should be in their court. The bible is full of instruction on how to work in a supernatural belief system. Why? The bible is full of rebuke for those who operate without a supernatural belief system. Jesus rebuked the disciples for it, the Pharisees for it, and He made it clear that what He had to say was backed up by miracles.

Jesus never ever said to anyone that the miracles would go away once the bible was written. And I have to tell you, I would think this would be an important thing to tell us. It has been a divisive issue and clear directions would have been appreciated. The only problem with that is that clear directions were given. And it was for a supernatural lifestyle where demons are cast out, sickness is healed, and the word is confirmed by such.

And then someone comes along many years after the apostles died when the church was at a low point, and viable miracles weren't happening, and bogus ones were. For whatever reason, they took it as a reason not to believe. They came up with bogus interpretation of I. Cor.13, calling "perfect" the NT, though there is ample evidence to the contrary including the actual meaning in the greek that points toward a "mature man" as the meaning. These churches that believed in Cessationism gained the upper hand in an enviornment where little proof of the supernatural was available, and it took off.

That enviornment was the era of Luther and Calvin who made great strides in confronting the corruption of the Catholic Church, and the false miracles that were perpetuated on the masses to collect money.

But today it is different. Not that there isn't fake faith healers who use the miraculous to gain finances. That is a given. But the Cessationist who allow for their argument to include their own experiences of fakes, demand that we ignore the evidence of the real because it is not scripture.

Double standard. And the burden is on the Cessationist to show something better than the "perfect" to change what is clearly taught in Scripture, and demanded by Jesus.

"By whom do you cast demons out by?"

"Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof." (Power means "dunamis" which is translated "Miraculous gifts."

I am sorry, but the burden is on the Cessationist. And perfect isn't cutting it.

[Dave123]

Dave says,

"Miracles were common in scripture in three time periods, all being about one hundred years each. So miracles, even in scripture, are common for three hundred years total out of four thousand. Each time God was revealing His written word. Now we have the faith once for all delivered. No more need for confirming miracles because His word is it's own confirmation."

Scudbuddy replies,

Almost every chapter in the bible has at least one miracle in it. Almost every chapter! Find 10 that don't. Name the chapter. List it. I bet if you look close, even those had some miracle in it. Sometimes God is so naturally supernatural we don't catch it.

Ok, since the subject was miracles through human agency, maybe I should have not assumed you would be fair with me and debate honestly. BTW, still waiting for your definition of the gift of miracles and healing.

It still works with all miracles, but let's stick to the topic at hand. Answer the same question with miracles through human agency (you can add miracles from God alone if you like). Draw a line across your wall to represent the time God was revealing His written word (about 4000 years). Every time you read about a miracle "through human agancy" mark it on the wall within the proper time frame. If you do this, then you will see that we have three breif periods, about one hundred years each, where miracles "through human agency" are common.

Balls back in your court, scud. My proof is scripture, so the burdon of proof is on you.

I think one of the mistakes Pentecostals have made is to allow for Cessationist to put the burden of proving the scriptures support miracles. The ball should be in their court. The bible is full of instruction on how to work in a supernatural belief system. Why? The bible is full of rebuke for those who operate without a supernatural belief system. Jesus rebuked the disciples for it, the Pharisees for it, and He made it clear that what He had to say was backed up by miracles.

This is word games, scud. We are to test everything. Nobody is denying what scripture says, so don't go that route. I will test you every time.

Cessation is what the Bible teaches, your new teaching is the one that has to do the proving, with scripture, and you haven't done it yet.

And then someone comes along many years after the apostles died when the church was at a low point, and viable miracles weren't happening, and bogus ones were. For whatever reason, they took it as a reason not to believe. They came up with bogus interpretation of I. Cor.13, calling "perfect" the NT, though there is ample evidence to the contrary including the actual meaning in the greek that points toward a "mature man" as the meaning. These churches that believed in Cessationism gained the upper hand in an enviornment where little proof of the supernatural was available, and it took off.

Your meaning is incorrect and undefendable. If we apply your definition to the perfect, then what Paul would be saying is that spiritual gifts are for immature Christians. Is that what you mean? If not, please explain.

demand that we ignore the evidence of the real because it is not scripture.

I'm glad you finally admitted it.

I'll try to get back today to finish

In Christ

Edited October 7, 2004 by Dave123