Have the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased?

[Dave123]

Dave said,

"Your meaning is incorrect and undefendable. If we apply your definition to the perfect, then what Paul would be saying is that spiritual gifts are for immature Christians. Is that what you mean? If not, please explain."

Scudbuddy replys,

Paul had to correct the Corinthian church who excelled in the gifts, but showed much immaturity, and sin and a lack of order. With all of that going on, we do not see Paul trying to eliminate or limit the gifts, but just mature the church.

The gifts aren't a reward system for those who are "mature", but a spiritual weapon to destroy the works of darkness. Some of the greatest miracles I have seen have taken place with the prayers of children.

I'm not shure you answered the question, Scud. According to your definition of the perfect, Paul would be saying when your maturity comes, the gifts will cease. I disagree that the Corinthians excelled in the gifts, at least the real ones. That would go against every basic understanding of how and when the Holy Spirit will manifest Himself through us.

If you go back and underline all the sin that was present in this church, it would sound more like something from a red light district than a church of God. Consider the sin that was taking place at the Corinthian church and ask yourself if the Holy Spirit would move in this place and through these people. They were worldly, divisive, opinionated, cliquish, carnal, fleshly, envious, strife-ridden, argumentative, puffed up, self- glorying, smug, immoral, compromising with sin, defrauding each other, fornicating, depriving in marriage, offending weaker Christians, lusting after evil things, idolatrous, fellowshiping with demons, insubordinate, gluttonous, drunken, selfish toward the poor, and desecrating the Lord's Table.

Paul basically told them that since he had left them the last time they should have grown, but they were still wearing their spiritual diapers. This church had it all wrong. Even the basics such as love, they didn't understand. This was a very imature church, but Paul cared deeply for them.

As Macarthur points out..."The Corinthian church had allowed the entire world system in which they existed to infiltrate their assembly. For example, they were emphasizing human philosophies (chapters 1-4), they had a hero worship cult (chapter 3), they were involved in terrible, gross, sexual immorality (chapters 5-6), they were suing each other in court (chapter 6), they had misevaluated their home and marriage relationships (chapter 7), they were confused about pagan feasts, idolatry, and things offered to idols (chapters 8-10), they had relinquished the proper place of women in the church (chapter 11), they had misunderstood the whole dimension of spiritual gifts (chapter 12), and they had lost hold of the one great thing--love (chapter 13)."

"Now as to my definition of miracles and healing.

When someone is healed of a sickness through supernatural means, they have been healed.

A miracle is harder to classify. Why? Because when we see a healing, most say the word "miracle", but I hold to the fact that miracles are like what happened to Elijah or Moses. Something different from the gift of healing which of course is a physical healing, but Paul seperated it from healing.

These are the definitions that I agree with. Remember, God's Word says that in all things He works for the good.... and He works all things according to the counsil of His will. So when it's not a miracle, by biblical definition, it is still from God and we call that providence. When God works through normal means not contrary to natural process. This is what a cessationist believes, these are things some non-cessationists do not want you to know. God is in control of all things, not just the miraculous and spectacular.

Miracle: In a Biblical sense "a miracle is an extraordinary work of God that involves His immediate and unmistakable intervention in the physical realm in a way that contravenes natural processes."

Providence is God's faithful, moment-by-moment control over everything He has made to ensure that everything He has created achieves the end He has chosen.

I know of some incredible miracles including what has happened in my life before my eyes. But experiences are discredited in this discussion as worthless to the topic. So I leave that part of my life that Revelation describes as a weapon that overcomes, and turn to logic and reason. ("They overcame by the blood of the Lamb, and the word of their TESTIMONY!")

Testamony is one thing, it still has to line up with the word of God.

Paul, speaking of himself in the third person, was forced to say he had gone to the third heaven. He didn't want to tell them this and kept it to himself for many years, but they forced him to. The reason he didn't want to even mention it was because there was no way to confirm it, it was unverifiable, and by him testifying of it to prove his spirituality or position, all it would do is invite every false teacher to make the same claims.

Now as to the listings of miracles, I cannot honestly say that I saw the argument as to being only about human agency. Remember, I am having several discussions with Neb, John, and yourself about this. It isn't always easy to keep track of whom stands where. You three, though all Cessationist, are all quite different in your belief of this teaching. I therefore have probaly addressed one about the others response without realizing it. Sorry.

You're right, I should have considered that, sorry.

Now, there are some humans involved outside of the 3 spans you talk about. Including Adam, Gideon, Enoch, Samson, Nathan, David, Daniel, Meshach, Shadrach, and Abendego, Abraham, Joseph, and some others. I pulled that list from the top of my head. I believe within that group we will find miracles of some sort or another happening, and they represent a huge portion of time. Now, it is true there are 3 periods in which multiple miracles took place at the behest of the prophets and saints.

I think that it is assumed that that means that miracles were only for those 3 periods. First no reference in scripture stresses this belief system, or even mentions it. And as I show above, it isn't even true that miracles didn't take place at other times. The number of miracles has nothing to do with eliminating miracles altogether no matter what. But no one can say that miracles only took place during three periods. It just isn't true.

LOL, I never said that all miracles happened within these three time frames, I only said that they were only common within these three time frames. If you check them off on your wall, you will see this. I can't write it all out, I'm trying to find something on the net that does that for me to save time. One that I agree is accurate and has the same exact questions in mind to answer.

As to Cessationist showing something other than the "perfect" as evidence, what is it? I have seen nothing else, and the perfect is referring to man no matter how much you like it. That is what it means in the greek. You or I can't change it. You can't make it into a book. That would be messing with the word.

I've made a post, and reposted it two times. You have never answered it. I agree with the maturity in a different light.

I can't keep up with you guys. I'll try.

Dave

Edited October 8, 2004 by Dave123

[Scudbuddy]

Dave,

You're right, I should have considered that, sorry.

QUOTE

Now, there are some humans involved outside of the 3 spans you talk about. Including Adam, Gideon, Enoch, Samson, Nathan, David, Daniel, Meshach, Shadrach, and Abendego, Abraham, Joseph, and some others. I pulled that list from the top of my head. I believe within that group we will find miracles of some sort or another happening, and they represent a huge portion of time. Now, it is true there are 3 periods in which multiple miracles took place at the behest of the prophets and saints.

I think that it is assumed that that means that miracles were only for those 3 periods. First no reference in scripture stresses this belief system, or even mentions it. And as I show above, it isn't even true that miracles didn't take place at other times. The number of miracles has nothing to do with eliminating miracles altogether no matter what. But no one can say that miracles only took place during three periods. It just isn't true.

LOL, I never said that all miracles happened within these three time frames, I only said that they were only common within these three time frames. If you check them off on your wall, you will see this. I can't write it all out, I'm trying to find something on the net that does that for me to save time. One that I agree is accurate and has the same exact questions in mind to answer.

________________________________________________________________________________

How about we agree on that in the sense that there are 3 time frames where it mostly took place. Not on that meaning anything. For that we will agree to disagree.

Got to go to work. God bless Dave. Oh, and don't worry about that part concerning me not remembering who I was talking to. Alzheimers at 44 is not all that uncommon, and that's my story and I am sticking to it. (If I can remember it tomorrow.)

[johnP]

Hello Scudbuddy.

"He told me all things about myself."

They knew her. She lived with them. I can imagine all the men knew her down the pub. She was one of the boys and so the women knew her too! Knew her very well. Imagine knowing a neighbour like that and she comes running proclaiming the arrival of the Messiah man! Announcing the arrival of Jesus. I've just realised that she, not Mary, was the second woman evangelist. She's got religion. Who her? You are right here but you can't extend that to people who are distant from each other.

"Jesus confirmed the word with signs and wonders." Why did Jesus need to do such things? Why is that generation so lucky to have it made so clear.

I overlook 'lucky' as a slip of the pen and easy to do. Fortunate is a word I have to keep rejecting myself.

Why did Jesus need to do such things?

Jesus needs to do things because they are part of His plan. That's the only reason Jesus 'needs' to do anything. I believe God was putting on a show. He was revealing His glory right up front. How comes so many demon possessed people kept turning up? They are not stupid those demons. You would have thought they'd keep well away from the Son of God.

Why is that generation so lucky to have it made so clear.

God was revealing His glory and He works by cause and effect. Too many miracles would bring the natural system He created to it's knees.

People that lived in most of the world had their own Gods. They did not need another but if one came along they might check it out. If he was more powerful then they would include him in their Pantheon.

We had to go and tell them our God was killed! But He can still do this, the rising of the dead and the healing of the sick. The word is established now. The story understood and acceptable. People have a point of reference and many witnesses testify to it's truth.

Who knows why He does anything?

This generation won't read the word because they have seen no reason (or proof of the need) to.

Each generation must weigh all things for themselves.

I am appalled by the lack of understanding I see around me but I do not say this generation but those close by, they are for me to judge. Every generation goes through this. Proof? If they do not believe what Moses wrote how they going to believe what you say?

But when I and so many others tell him of how God healed the sick before our very eyes when we prayed for them, it is a non-factor. Isn't important at all. Has nothing to do with the facts.

It must be verifiable for me to praise the Lord for it otherwise it goes on the self towards the back.

This is why when he argues from that stance it is frustrating.

It must not become frustrating Scudbuddy. It is God that teaches and He does as He pleases through us. He convinces, not us. Elijah was just like you.

Would it mean nothing if you saw a miracle take place right before your eyes after a brother prayed for that miracle?

Only if verifiable. It would not increase my faith. I believe God rather works through cause and effect and He likes it like that because that is the system He chose. I don't think He chooses to ignore it but whenever He wants He does. It does not increase my faith though.

Once they see the proof, they will either hardened their hearts or join us. I am believing for the latter.

That is God's job. To harden or soften. It's our job to pray for a strong Church.

But until then, their argument literally means nothing to me. I am just trying to keep others from swallowing unbelief without a fight.

You have that duty and so does Neb. We all do. To speak the truth we have. To contend. He could explain it all to us in a second but He wants us to grow together. We should trust Jesus to direct the Holy Spirit. He is changing all of us at His pace.

johnp.

[Dave123]

Just so i'm not misundertood, I don't believe that the perfect has anything to do with tongues, and it only tells us when the gifts of prophecy and knowledge will end for the individual, not the end of the gifts themselves.

Someone earlier gave a Greek breakdown of "perfect" and I believe that definition still fits perfectly (no pun intended) with what I have stated about how I believe the perfect should be defined.

If the perfect is the completed cannon, then Prophecy (non-revelatory) and knowledge would be gone, making it impossible for the two prophets to fulfill that passage of God's word in Revelation. Also it would be impossible for the prophecy of joel to be completely fulfilled.

We will only see "face to face" and "know as we are fully known" when we are in heaven. This will "complete" the matureing process and bring us to the end that God has so desired.

When you take the time, (if you haven'yt already) to understand my position, you will see that it all fits together nicely, chapter 13, that is. I wish that I had the time to lay it out properly.

Being one who believes that the miraculous gifts have ceased, I would have liked nothing better than to have a "silver bullet" to end the discusion. But, even though it's much more lengthier and difficult because of the vastness of this topic, I have to do it the hard way because I believe that it is the truthful, and correct way.

God bless

[johnP]

Dave.

Even the basics such as love...

That is maturity.

As Macarthur points out..."The Corinthian church had allowed the entire world system in which they existed to infiltrate their assembly. For example, they were emphasizing human philosophies (chapters 1-4), they had a hero worship cult (chapter 3), they were involved in terrible, gross, sexual immorality (chapters 5-6), they were suing each other in court (chapter 6), they had misevaluated their home and marriage relationships (chapter 7), they were confused about pagan feasts, idolatry, and things offered to idols (chapters 8-10), they had relinquished the proper place of women in the church (chapter 11), they had misunderstood the whole dimension of spiritual gifts (chapter 12), and they had lost hold of the one great thing--love (chapter 13)."

As it was so shall it be.

Look at Israel, the type for the Church. No difference there either. I think to get a good picture of the church it is to look at the type. It is very hard to tell the sheep from the goats.

The reason he didn't want to even mention it was because there was no way to confirm it, it was unverifiable, and by him testifying of it to prove his spirituality or position, all it would do is invite every false teacher to make the same claims.

Good point, Why did God want it in then? But I believe Paul. I've come to know the man and would not expect a lie from him. He uses his experience to support his claim and I believe him. I am not a non-Christian and it does not increase my faith. What effect does it have on a non-Christian? None I would say.

He is talking to the Church not evangelising. He says to his brothers and sisters a thing that is unprovable to the world but not to those who know him. Discernment tells me to believe him because I know he knows the truth. I know him.

johnp.

[Nebuchadnezza10]

I speak in tongues. Often.

So you can speak in different languages to people without learning the language?

My point about the Holy Spirit being on someone and the proof of it was that the disciples said that the proof was that they spoke in tongues. Somehow you seem to think that works against me because Paul laid hands on them. Big deal. Show me the verse that says Paul or the disciples have to lay hands on you. Don't show me your presumptions from books that Paul wrote about laying hands on people. Show me the verse that says that it can only be done by apostles. Only.

I have posted these vs

[Scudbuddy]

Hello Scudbuddy.

"He told me all things about myself."

They knew her. She lived with them. I can imagine all the men knew her down the pub. She was one of the boys and so the women knew her too! Knew her very well. Imagine knowing a neighbour like that and she comes running proclaiming the arrival of the Messiah man! Announcing the arrival of Jesus. I've just realised that she, not Mary, was the second woman evangelist. She's got religion. Who her? You are right here but you can't extend that to people who are distant from each other.

"Jesus confirmed the word with signs and wonders." Why did Jesus need to do such things? Why is that generation so lucky to have it made so clear.

I overlook 'lucky' as a slip of the pen and easy to do. Fortunate is a word I have to keep rejecting myself.

Why did Jesus need to do such things?

Jesus needs to do things because they are part of His plan. That's the only reason Jesus 'needs' to do anything. I believe God was putting on a show. He was revealing His glory right up front. How comes so many demon possessed people kept turning up? They are not stupid those demons. You would have thought they'd keep well away from the Son of God.

Why is that generation so lucky to have it made so clear.

God was revealing His glory and He works by cause and effect. Too many miracles would bring the natural system He created to it's knees.

People that lived in most of the world had their own Gods. They did not need another but if one came along they might check it out. If he was more powerful then they would include him in their Pantheon.

We had to go and tell them our God was killed! But He can still do this, the rising of the dead and the healing of the sick. The word is established now. The story understood and acceptable. People have a point of reference and many witnesses testify to it's truth.

Who knows why He does anything?

This generation won't read the word because they have seen no reason (or proof of the need) to.

Each generation must weigh all things for themselves.

I am appalled by the lack of understanding I see around me but I do not say this generation but those close by, they are for me to judge. Every generation goes through this. Proof? If they do not believe what Moses wrote how they going to believe what you say?

But when I and so many others tell him of how God healed the sick before our very eyes when we prayed for them, it is a non-factor. Isn't important at all. Has nothing to do with the facts.

It must be verifiable for me to praise the Lord for it otherwise it goes on the self towards the back.

This is why when he argues from that stance it is frustrating.

It must not become frustrating Scudbuddy. It is God that teaches and He does as He pleases through us. He convinces, not us. Elijah was just like you.

Would it mean nothing if you saw a miracle take place right before your eyes after a brother prayed for that miracle?

Only if verifiable. It would not increase my faith. I believe God rather works through cause and effect and He likes it like that because that is the system He chose. I don't think He chooses to ignore it but whenever He wants He does. It does not increase my faith though.

Once they see the proof, they will either hardened their hearts or join us. I am believing for the latter.

That is God's job. To harden or soften. It's our job to pray for a strong Church.

But until then, their argument literally means nothing to me. I am just trying to keep others from swallowing unbelief without a fight.

You have that duty and so does Neb. We all do. To speak the truth we have. To contend. He could explain it all to us in a second but He wants us to grow together. We should trust Jesus to direct the Holy Spirit. He is changing all of us at His pace.

johnp.

John,

I agree that she was known, and so what she had to share had more weight than what I would share with complete strangers. But my point is this. Neb and Dave have both stated that my experience doesn't matter. Only scripture. In other words, if I was the woman at the well, and they were my neighbors, it doesn't matter what happened.

It does matter. When we share our faith, (testimony) what are we sharing but how Jesus changed our lives. But some on this forum think that doesn't matter. What matters is crossing the T till you can make man into NT.

I believe in the validity of experience to confirm the word. Sorry that some don't. They must take it up with Jesus who seem to think so too. Otherwise, he just would have spent his first 30 years in life writing his memoirs, thoughts and feelings; and then got crucified, rose again, and as He was ascending into heaven, convienently dropped the book into someones lap as they were looking up, and tell them to get a good publisher, and not to worry about waiting on the Holy Spirit to take their world for Him. The book would do it just fine.

[Nebuchadnezza10]

I agree that she was known, and so what she had to share had more weight than what I would share with complete strangers. But my point is this. Neb and Dave have both stated that my experience doesn't matter. Only scripture. In other words, if I was the woman at the well, and they were my neighbors, it doesn't matter what happened.

It does matter. When we share our faith, (testimony) what are we sharing but how Jesus changed our lives. But some on this forum think that doesn't matter. What matters is crossing the T till you can make man into NT.

Ok so can you answer any of the bible vs

[Scudbuddy]

I speak in tongues. Often.

So you can speak in different languages to people without learning the language?

My point about the Holy Spirit being on someone and the proof of it was that the disciples said that the proof was that they spoke in tongues. Somehow you seem to think that works against me because Paul laid hands on them. Big deal. Show me the verse that says Paul or the disciples have to lay hands on you. Don't show me your presumptions from books that Paul wrote about laying hands on people. Show me the verse that says that it can only be done by apostles. Only.

I have posted these vs

[Scudbuddy]

I agree that she was known, and so what she had to share had more weight than what I would share with complete strangers. But my point is this. Neb and Dave have both stated that my experience doesn't matter. Only scripture. In other words, if I was the woman at the well, and they were my neighbors, it doesn't matter what happened.

It does matter. When we share our faith, (testimony) what are we sharing but how Jesus changed our lives. But some on this forum think that doesn't matter. What matters is crossing the T till you can make man into NT.

Ok so can you answer any of the bible vs