Have the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased?

[Nebuchadnezza10]

You seem to have a hard time with the concept of what it means to speak in tongues.

What do ya mean? I gave you the bible vs that show you that speaking in tongues is speaking in different languages.

I can tell you other stories just like that. A man speaking in a tongue in our church, and my wife who speaks only English gave the interpretation.

The mayor of Pasadena Texas asked my wife if she spoke Arabic, and also asked the man if he did too. Neither did. He grew up in a family that was in the oil business, and lived in Saudi Arabia most of his childhood. He said that she gave a perfect translation, and that he spoke it as if he had lived there.

Want more? I got more!

Tell ya what, why not speak to me in Africans, or in Spanish.

Your verses to show that only the apostles could hand out the gifts is still very weak. Ananais wasn't an apostle. Prayed for Pauls healing. Had revelatory experiences. Paul was healed, filled with the Holy Spirit. No apostles around.

Answered that one.

Why not answer the vs

[Dave123]

Hey John

Good point, Why did God want it in then? But I believe Paul. I've come to know the man and would not expect a lie from him. He uses his experience to support his claim and I believe him. I am not a non-Christian and it does not increase my faith. What effect does it have on a non-Christian? None I would say.

He is talking to the Church not evangelising. He says to his brothers and sisters a thing that is unprovable to the world but not to those who know him. Discernment tells me to believe him because I know he knows the truth. I know him.

I believe him too. I hope I didn't give the impression that I thought he was lying, far be it from that. The point is that if unverifiable stories were the way to go to prove anything, Paul could have done it, but he didn't, even though his story was true. It would have done more harm than good. Be good Bereans.

Here is the bottom line for this thread. There is way too much on the table at one time to have a meaningful discussion. Anything meaningful gets lost in the shuffle. We could fill this same amount of space speaking only about tongues.

I have already shown that the perfect has nothing to do with when all of the the gifts themselves (for everyone), will cease. There are things to be learned from that passage (1 Cor. 13) , but when the gifts as a whole will cease for the body is not one of them.

To assume that they all last forever is contrary to scripture.

Each miraculous gift has to be discussed seperately, the unmiraculous can be bunched together unless someone can show good reason not to.

If anyone would like to start a thread on the gift of tongues, or the gift of miracles, or the gift of healing, then I would be more than happy to contribute, and I have a lot to contribute, especially with the gift of tongues. I kknow all sides of the issue well, I guess you could say that this is my "thing", or my pet study that I spend my extra time on. Though there are some things in scripture that tie the miraculous gifts together, it would be most profitable to discuss them seperately.

If anyone holds experience over scripture either in word or in deed, then the discussion is pointless with me, because our sources of truth are different, and anything we discuss will always come back to that, eventually. I define experience by scripture. This does not change the experience, or deny the way some may feel when that experience happened, it's just being Biblical, using that sword that is part of our armor.

This will be my last post in this thread, so, God bless, and carry on.

[Scudbuddy]

Who is it that seeks a sign? Was it the Jews or the Greeks? Whatever it was, now it is the Africans.

Neb, I have dictionarys with the Swahili language here. On the net it is easy to download "How to speak" software.

So lets' say I didn't reprove you with what Jesus reproved the Pharisees above with, and played your game. All you would have to do is say I downloaded it off the net.

In the meantime, my original statement about tongues stand. You don't know what tongues is about. Notice no question mark attached this time to the statement.

The gift doesn't make me a speaker of any language I want to speak as I want to speak to impress Unbelievers. It didn't make the apostles either. That is not how the gift works. The apostles were still limited to the language they spoke in conversing in day to day with people.

Now I do know an evangelist who goes into different villages in Guatemala on the border of Costa Rica, and though he does not speak any of their languages, as he enters their village and has need to, he speaks and hears that dialect. He goes to several and they all have a different dialect. But that is only my story, and obviously means nothing to you.

The request you asked shows that the supernatural will never satisfy logic and reason. It cannot, and like Jesus with the Unbelieving Pharisees, it will not.

[Scudbuddy]

Hey John

Good point, Why did God want it in then? But I believe Paul. I've come to know the man and would not expect a lie from him. He uses his experience to support his claim and I believe him. I am not a non-Christian and it does not increase my faith. What effect does it have on a non-Christian? None I would say.

He is talking to the Church not evangelising. He says to his brothers and sisters a thing that is unprovable to the world but not to those who know him. Discernment tells me to believe him because I know he knows the truth. I know him.

I believe him too. I hope I didn't give the impression that I thought he was lying, far be it from that. The point is that if unverifiable stories were the way to go to prove anything, Paul could have done it, but he didn't, even though his story was true. It would have done more harm than good. Be good Bereans.

Here is the bottom line for this thread. There is way too much on the table at one time to have a meaningful discussion. Anything meaningful gets lost in the shuffle. We could fill this same amount of space speaking only about tongues.

I have already shown that the perfect has nothing to do with when all of the the gifts themselves (for everyone), will cease. There are things to be learned from that passage (1 Cor. 13) , but when the gifts as a whole will cease for the body is not one of them.

To assume that they all last forever is contrary to scripture.

Each miraculous gift has to be discussed seperately, the unmiraculous can be bunched together unless someone can show good reason not to.

If anyone would like to start a thread on the gift of tongues, or the gift of miracles, or the gift of healing, then I would be more than happy to contribute, and I have a lot to contribute, especially with the gift of tongues. I kknow all sides of the issue well, I guess you could say that this is my "thing", or my pet study that I spend my extra time on. Though there are some things in scripture that tie the miraculous gifts together, it would be most profitable to discuss them seperately.

If anyone holds experience over scripture either in word or in deed, then the discussion is pointless with me, because our sources of truth are different, and anything we discuss will always come back to that, eventually. I define experience by scripture. This does not change the experience, or deny the way some may feel when that experience happened, it's just being Biblical, using that sword that is part of our armor.

This will be my last post in this thread, so, God bless, and carry on.

Dave,

I believe that the miraculous ends with the Kingdom of God being totally established with no more sinners left to convert. They end the day Heaven is here. Then we don't need them. No one is sick.

I have to say you are a different kind of Cessationist. I forgot that you do not believe the word "Perfect" is the proof. My mind probaly refuses to consider such an animal exist. Never met one.

[Nebuchadnezza10]

Who is it that seeks a sign? Was it the Jews or the Greeks? Whatever it was, now it is the Africans.

We have explained the vs about the Pharisees wanting a sign. I am wanting confirmation of your words!

The gift doesn't make me a speaker of any language I want to speak as I want to speak to impress Unbelievers.

The gifts were not to impress unbelievers but to confirm the word. Speaking in tongues was especially for the unbelievers. Moreover the speaker of tongues controlled the language that he spoke in.

The apostles were still limited to the language they spoke in conversing in day to day with people.

Where does it say they where limited in what language they spoke?

Now I do know an evangelist who goes into different villages in Guatemala on the border of Costa Rica, and though he does not speak any of their languages, as he enters their village and has need to, he speaks and hears that dialect. He goes to several and they all have a different dialect. But that is only my story, and obviously means nothing to you.

Sorry, means nothing to me.

And again, you have not answered the vs I gave you. Your not avoiding them are you?

So I can safely say that you are all stumped by the fact that only the apostles could pass on the gifts. There is nothing wrong with being wrong. (HAHA! Just messing with ya guys.)

[Scudbuddy]

Who is it that seeks a sign? Was it the Jews or the Greeks? Whatever it was, now it is the Africans.

We have explained the vs about the Pharisees wanting a sign. I am wanting confirmation of your words!

The gift doesn't make me a speaker of any language I want to speak as I want to speak to impress Unbelievers.

The gifts were not to impress unbelievers but to confirm the word. Speaking in tongues was especially for the unbelievers. Moreover the speaker of tongues controlled the language that he spoke in.

The apostles were still limited to the language they spoke in conversing in day to day with people.

Where does it say they where limited in what language they spoke?

Now I do know an evangelist who goes into different villages in Guatemala on the border of Costa Rica, and though he does not speak any of their languages, as he enters their village and has need to, he speaks and hears that dialect. He goes to several and they all have a different dialect. But that is only my story, and obviously means nothing to you.

Sorry, means nothing to me.

And again, you have not answered the vs I gave you. Your not avoiding them are you?

So I can safely say that you are all stumped by the fact that only the apostles could pass on the gifts. There is nothing wrong with being wrong. (HAHA! Just messing with ya guys.)

Answered apostles. Ananais wasn't an apostle. Paul got the gift from a non-apostle.

You have thrown dozens of verses at me. Most which have either been dealt with, but you didn't like, like the one on Ananais, or we have either agreed or disagreed on. Which verse are you talking about?

And your stance on tongues is so out of whack, I am still trying to figure out how you got there. Then I remembered. Your mindset is so bound to logic, and you are looking at the supernatural as if it is to be explained simply by your human mind.

You have made presumptions about the gift of tongues. Where in Scripture does it say that any of the apostles or disciples suddenly had a day to day ability to converse with others in a tongue they did not know before Pentecost?

Also, notice that all 120 recieved the gift. Not one of them report that they received it by the laying on of hands on the day of Pentecost. It happened at the same time in the same way to all present in the upper room. And nowhere did they leave the room and begin to talk to people in their own language from then on.

The gift of tongues doesn't work that way. In fact in all of my dealings with Cessationist over many years, you are the first to make that claim to me. First demon possesion, and now tongues makes the apostles linguist experts. Wow! What next?

But wait, there is more. Now you have the apostles controlling which language they spoke. That too is a new one. Does any other Cessationist believe this? Is this something being propagated in their Seminaries lately?

[Nebuchadnezza10]

Answered apostles. Ananais wasn't an apostle. Paul got the gift from a non-apostle.

Go back a couple of post. I

[jc49]

I would like people to have a look at the verse below, and explain what the "perfect " is and what the "imperfect" are.

I would much appreciate any greek translations and any other bible verses that could support an oppinion.

Thanx people!

1 Corinthians 13

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

NO...they haven't ceased......Jesus is the same,and so the Holy Spirit,and so The father......so,they are there for us to ask,believe and receive.."for the common good",for the edification of the body,the church,not for selfish self gratyfing purposes.....anyway.....we are still in the age of grace....when we are with HIM they will cease..God bless you

[Botz]

Acts 8:18

When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money

2 Timothy 1

6For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands. 7For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline.

Act 8

14When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. 15When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into[3] the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Neb...the point about this is that G-d was not limited to the gifts...or the Holy Ghost being passed on by the laying on of hands from the Apostles. Yes it happened that way in the 3 verses you have mentioned...but at other times it is evidently a sovereign move of G-d....Hence Pentecost...or at the home of Cornelius...

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

But I am not going to make a theology that says the Holy Ghost is given just by the preaching of the word. I know of a Jewish lady who cried out to G-d if Jesus was the Messiah...the next thing that happened she was baptized in the Holy Ghost...etc...etc...(I just threw that in because although you hate personal stories some that read this will consider it and weigh it. )

[Nebuchadnezza10]

Acts 8:18

When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money

2 Timothy 1

6For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands. 7For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline.

Act 8

14When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. 15When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into[3] the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Neb...the point about this is that G-d was not limited to the gifts...or the Holy Ghost being passed on by the laying on of hands from the Apostles. Yes it happened that way in the 3 verses you have mentioned...but at other times it is evidently a sovereign move of G-d....Hence Pentecost...or at the home of Cornelius...

What do you mean at the home of Cornelius?

At Pentecost it was a one of thing along with when the apostles received the Gifts. The reason behind why the gentiles at Pentecost received the HS in this way was to prove that the gentiles had also been offered repentance.

Acts 11:18

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."

I will also post something from a previous post that talks to this statement.

The apostles and the gentiles of Acts 11 received the Gifts from God in a miraculous way, as a one-off. In act 11:15 it says that