oh hmm evolution

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

Hello brother,

The Munificent Quran is the words of Allah not Muhammad. Muhammad is just a messenger of Allah sent by Allah to deliver His message. The sayings of prophet Muhammad is called Hadith.

I know.

But the revelation of the Quran was supposedly from Allah, through Gabriel, to Muhammad, who then dictated the words, and the Hadith is supposedly the authoritative lens through which these words are supposed to be interpreted, correct?

What you quote is false.

This is the translation of Ayah [5:68]:

Allah says: "Say, “O people of the Book, you are up to nothing until you keep up the Tawrah and the Injil and whatever has been sent to you from your Lord.” And indeed what has been sent down to you (The prophet Muhammad) from your Lord will definitely increase many of them in ordinance and disbelief, so do not feel sad for the disbelieving people.(68) Surely the ones who have believed and the ones who have guided (Yahood), and the SabîÉûn, (Sabaeans) and the Nasara, whoever has believed in Allah and the Last Day and done righteousness, then no fear will be on them, nor will they grieve.(69)" [5:68/69]

The meaning: Allah orders His prophet Muuhammad to say to the people of the book (Whom Allah sent to them His books 'Yahood and Nassara') to keep up the Turah and Injeel the books of Allah.

In the second Ayah, Allah says that who have believed in Him from Yahood and Nassara are be saved in the Day of Judgment.

Now the question is: Are you from Yahood? Are you from Nassara? Is your book the Injeel? Is your book the Turah?

This doesn’t impact anything. It still says “O people of the Book, you are up to nothing until you keep up the Tawrah and the Injil and whatever has been sent to you from your Lord”, and that’s the point.

And you seem to have totally ignored the passage from Surah 10:94.

Didn't you see Muslims praying?!

We Muslims don't bow or kneel to anything or anyone but to Allah The One True God.

Prophet Muhammad was unlattered and Quran is the revelation of Allah.

You’re ignoring the point.

“A group of Jews came and invited the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) to Quff. So he visited them in their school. They said: AbulQasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion for the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee” (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38, Number 4434).

The point is Muhammad said to believe the scripture and then contradicted the scripture.

This defies the law of non-contradiction, and we have copies of the Torah that predate Muhammad’s birth by centuries, so it’s not like you can simply claim that it was corrupted.

This is false words, not in Quran!

"O you who have believed, do not take to yourselves the Jews and the Nasara (Christians) as patrons; some of them are patrons to some (others). And whoever of you patronizes them, then surely he is one of them. Surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.(51)Those in whose heart is a disease― thou seest how eagerly they run about amongst them, saying: "We do fear lest a change of fortune bring us disaster." Ah! perhaps Allah will give (thee) victory, or a decision according to His Will. Then will they repent of the thoughts which they secretly harboured in their hearts. (52)"

The meaning: Allah addresses the believers not to take Yahood and Nassara as patrons at the state of war. This Ayah provides political rules not social rules.

In the second Ayah, Allah says that those who take them as patrons are those whose hearts are sick, they have inner fear (because of their weak belief) and afraid to lose war and be defeated.

Allah says that victory is from Him.

And I’m sure that you can likewise explain away each of these:

"Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them..." (Surah 3:28).

"O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people, they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand" (Surah 3:118).

"You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide" (Surah 5:80).

"O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers" (Surah 9:23).

"Therefore shun those who turn away from Our Message and desire nothing but the life of this world" (Surah 53:29).

But it begs the question, from where to you get your fatwas?

We could, of course find it decreed by various Imams that these interpretations are true to the text, so what makes your fatwas so compelling as to convince even outsiders, if Muslims don’t even agree with your reading?

But once again, we run into the problem of the fact that you subscribe to a religion that embraces deceit, so I can’t trust your reading, which contradicts the reading of many Muslims the world over since the inception of Islam.

Maybe you’re telling me the truth and that is your interpretation, and maybe you’re not, but even if it really is your interpretation, many Muslims disagree with you and read it as prohibition to taking non-Muslim friends, except for the purpose of subversion.

The Ayah which explains how to treat people of the book is:

"8. Allah does not forbid you (as regards) the ones who have not fought you on account of the religion and have not driven you out of your residences that you should be benign to them and be equitable towards them; surely Allah loves the equitable.(8) Surely Allah only forbids you as to the ones who have fought you on account of the religion, and driven you out of your homes, and backed (others) in driving you out, that you should patronize them;and whoever patronizes them, then those are they who are the unjust.(9) [60:8/9]

To check yourself:

"أهل الكتاب": Ahl Al Kitab: people of the book. Ahl means people and relative and owner. Al Kitab means the book.

"أولياء/يتولى": Yatawala/ Awliyaa: patronize/ patronizers.

The two words in bold is wrong translation. Expert in Arabic is Khabir خبير. Friend is Sadiq صديق.

I gave you the words with the transliteration and the Arabic meaning to check yourself from any Arabic dictionary.

It makes no difference, since you can just as readily find intolerant verses as tolerant ones, and while you may deny the doctrine of abrogation it is taught that the former verses are less authoritative than the later, so the less tolerant ones (which tend to have been written last) have more weight than the former, as per the Quran “When We abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten, We will bring one better than it or one similar; do you not know that Allah is Able to do all things?” (Surah 2:106).

Do you know what is the meaning of Zimmah?

Zimmah means responsibility. So any non Muslim in a muslim country is under the responsibilty and protection of Muslims no one can attack or hurt him.

To say this is sugar coated would be to pay this an undo compliment.

Here we see the manifestation of the doctrine of deceit. The Dhimmi are not now, nor have they ever been, some charge over which the Muslim grants protection.

If you run your own country some day under the interpretation that such is the case, then great, but it’s simply historically and politically false to suggest that this definition has ever applied in an Islamic context.

According to the law of Allah, Islam is the law of the Muslim country but the non Muslims have their own different rules,

Exactly. Here we call that discrimination.

should they follow the law and Sharia of Islam?

No, so this treatment with non Muslim to protect their own law and culture and religion and protect them against any enemy

According to pretty much nothing but the assurances of someone who follows the “best of all deceivers” the prophet who breaks treaties and claims that “war is deceit” and has the doctrine of deceit, in kind.

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

as they don't participate in war, in return, they should admit the Islam authority of the state by paying Jizya.

What is Jizya?

jizya means payment in return for protecting them and to be paid to the state and will return to the state. It is a specific amount of money paid by the young men only yearly. For example 100 pounds for every non Muslim young man.

According to Sharia (Islam law), a Muslim (the rich) should pay the annual Zakat (specific percentage of his money '2.5%') paid to the state to be to the poor and need regardless of their religion.

Non Muslims don't pay Zakat because they are not obliged to follow the law of Islam (Sharia) concerning Prayer, Zakat, Fasting accroding to Zimmah contract.

So the non Muslim rich is asked to pay Jizya which is a tiny amount of money under the capability of the poor and the rich equally.

Unfortunately this law is not applied in many Muslim countries.

The Jizya is clearly denoted as a tax to extract from people after they are physically subdued and an Islamic rule is set over them, under which they are to be treated as second class citizens.

To cite an amount for the Jizya is meaningless, because the amount is to be ‘agreed upon’ between the Muslims in charge and the Dhimmi who’re forced to submit to whatever the Islamic authorities decree, on pain of forfeiting their ‘contract’ which means their right to “protection”, which actually means their right to live.

It’s no different from the extortion of a mafia protection racket.

If you want to read more about Zimmah, read about the opening of Egypt by Omar ibnul Khattab.

I prefer to read sources that are not committed to following the “best of all deceivers”, and don’t subscribe to doctrines of deceit.

Slunder. This treaty was an opening and mercy but the believers knew that later. Prophet Muhammad and his followers wanted to do pilgrimage (Hij) so they went to Mecca without weapons seeking the face of Allah. Meccans prevented them and after alot of negotiations, they decided to make a treaty with prophet Muhammad to avoid war.

In this treaty, Muslims will not enter Mecca this year and will be allowed to pilgrim next year and Meccans will leave the city for Muslims till they finish the pilgrimage.

No war between them for ten years.

No party conquer another party.

And after few years, Mecca broke the treaty and conquered Khoza'a and killed Muslim citizens then the promise of Allah achieved when Muslims were prepared to open Mecca and finally Mecca the city of The Holy Mosque and in which Muhammd was born was opened without sheding blood and turned to Islam.

"And say, “The Truth has come and untruth has expired; surely the untruth has been ever-expiring" [17:81]

That’s an interesting rendition of the account of Muhammad breaking the treaty.

Interestingly enough, again your fellow Muslims disagree with you.

Arafat often cited the treaty in reference to his intentions when signing peace treaties with Israel, and then turned around and made comments about driving Israel into the sea.

This is the first time to hear about this Taqqiya, may be you mean this Hadith:

No, I don’t mean that, I mean the one I’ve already quoted.

If you don’t know the doctrine of Taqqiya, then either you’re practicing it right now, or you need to learn more about the religion to which you subscribe before trying to gain converts.

54. And they schemed, and Allah schemed, and Allah is The Most Charitable of schemers. (54). As Allah said, “O Isa (Jesus), surely I am taking you up to Me, and I am raising you up to Me, and I am purifying you of the ones who have disbelieved. And I am making the ones who have closely followed you above the ones who have disbelieved until the Day of the Resurrection. Thereafter to Me will be your return; so I will judge between you as to whatever you used to differ in.(55) [3:54/55]

These truly are the words of the “best of deceivers”.

[Happy Forever]

I know.

But the revelation of the Quran was supposedly from Allah, through Gabriel, to Muhammad, who then dictated the words, and the Hadith is supposedly the authoritative lens through which these words are supposed to be interpreted, correct?

No, you know nothing or the opposite.

Tell people here from where you got this false information. I know, ha.

Your ignorance and arrogance make you think that you know Islam more than Muslims?!!!!!

I am an Islam scholar graduated from Al Azhar. I know Islam and Judaism and Christianity more than you.

Do you know what is the meaning of Allah, Islam, Muslim, Quran, Muhammad??

How and you even don't know what is the meaning of Christianity, Christian, Jesus, god, bible!

Are you asking me? or are you guessing? Or are you a weapon moved by another hand?

Any way, I will tell you.

The Munificent Quran is the great perfect words of Allah The One True God. Quran is divine words not human words.

Quran was sent to prophet Muhammad from Allah through Jibril word by word, letter by letter with no slight change.

The prophet's companions kept it by heart and recorded it word by word, letter by letter with no slight change.

Quran the perfect words of Allah is a miracle from Allah. Quran is in Arabic.

"Ha Mim. (1) By the Manifest Book ― (2) We have made it a Qur'an in Arabic, that ye may be able to understand (and learn wisdom). (3)" [43:1/3]

Do you think Quran is like your bible??

The Quran is the Arabic one version.

Do you think this translation is Quran?!

Then you don't know what is the meaning of Quran and even know nothing at all.

These countless translations are bad translations of the interpretations of the Munificent Quran.

Do you think there is a man in the world can translate one Ayah in Quran?!!!

Then you know nothing at all.

Let you or the one who deceive you play with the different false and weak translations, feel rest. They all are not Quran.

Any translation I sent you is near to the meaning but not the full meaning and will never be.

To interprete one small Ayah consisted of two words and deliver its meaning, it would take a full page even the meaning will not be fully.

The Quran is the only perfect book in the universe and no one on earth can produce the like of it.

You are deceived.

Search for the truth by yourself and don't let yourself feeded.

Edited September 17, 2011 by Happy Forever

[Happy Forever]

This doesn’t impact anything. It still says “O people of the Book, you are up to nothing until you keep up the Tawrah and the Injil and whatever has been sent to you from your Lord”, and that’s the point.

And you seem to have totally ignored the passage from Surah 10:94.

Because you look at the mirror.

Here is the reply again:

Are you from Yahood? Are you from Nassarah?

Is your book called Injeel? Is your book called Torah???

What you don't know is that Christians and Jews never ever mentioned in The Munificent Quran.

Show me your ignorance and quote countless of countless quotes of the all translations you have and I have, Quran never metioned Christians or Jews or old testament or new one.

Throw all the translation of the translation of the interpretation of Quran you find in the Nile, feel rest, they are not Quran.

Edited September 17, 2011 by Happy Forever

[Guest]

I know I am a Muslim in a Christian forum and I respect you all. I wish to debate you civilly and respectfully to discover the truth.

Beloved There Are Many Who Will Debate And Many Who Will Claim The Name Of Jesus

For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. Mark 13:22

But There Is Only One Way And Only One Truth

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

And In His Name Is Salvation

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12

Beloved, Please Call

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Joel 2:32

And Please

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36

Taste

O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him. Psalm 34:8

And Be Blessed Beloved, Be Very Blessed

Love, Joe

____________

In The Mighty Name Of My LORD And My God, Jesus The Messiah And Your SON Do I Pray

Thank You! Thank You Abba Father For Answered Prayer

Your Priceless Holy Gift Is My Sure Hope

And Daddy I Love You So

I Love You

Amen

Your

Joe

[Happy Forever]

Asalaam Alaikum Happy.

Some simple questions for you

1) Were the Injil, Torat and Zaboor from God in their original form?

If so, then how can man pervert what is from God? Cannot God protect His own Words?

2) Why do you think the Injil, Torat and Zaboor are corrupted by the way?

3) Why do you not believe that Jesus son of Mary was not crucified?

Wa Alikom Assalam brother,

1) Yes, they were.

"Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allâh," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby. (79)" [2:79]

Allah protects His books if He wills. He left the burden upon man but for Quran:

"Verily We: It is We Who have sent down the remainder (the Qur'ân) and surely, We are to it, verily Gurdian (9)" [15:9]

We refers to Allah.

2) Turah and Injeel were partially corrupted at the time of Prophet Muhammad, the Jews hided parts and changed others.

These books, brothers, were not available for like now in Quran.

Pope and priests kept it for themselves cuz they couldn't apply it or in other words, these great books were against their interests.

That is why Allah ordered His messengers to tell people of the book to apply their books.

Now, these books are not existed even the corrupted version. What you have between your hands are human quotes from the mouth and fingers of man.

Turah and Injeel are the words of Allah from Him to Moses and Jesus not from Moses and Jesus then recorded by other many people. Then recently you try to search for your book to found part thrown here and other there written by anyone claiming anything.

They are not existed, brother. The words of Allah stands by itself not by died deceived people or old papers.

3)

155. So, for their breaking of their compact, and their disbelieving in the signs of Allah, and their killing of the Prophesiers (i.e. prophets) untruthfully and their saying, “Our hearts are encased.” No indeed, (but) Allah has stamped upon them for their disbelief; so they do not believe except a few.

156. And for their disbelief and their speaking against Maryam (Mary) a tremendous all-malicious (calumny).

157. And for their saying, “Surely we killed the Masih, Isa son of Maryam, (The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary) the Messenger of Allah.” And in no way did they kill him, and in no way did they crucify him, but a resemblance of him was presented to them (i.e. the matter was made obscure for them through mutual resemblance). And surely the ones who differed about him are indeed in doubt about him. In no way do they have any knowledge about him except the close following of surmise, and in no way did they kill him of a certainty.

158. No indeed, Allah raised him up to Him; and Allah has been Ever-Mighty, Ever-Wise.

[4:155/158]

Please also consider. As you say to OldEnglishSheepdog to beware of "non Muslim, ignorant, unauthorized, cheap, anti Islam" information, how much of your own information is flawed because it has come through Muslim eyes which do not understand what the Bible teaches?

Often God instructs us with the accusations we point at others.

Thanks for your politeness and respect and your logic.

I know bible and and its flaws and politics too but I don't throw false accusations out of ignorance. I and no body gain from this. That is why I ask for a respectful debate to find the truth.

---

Also, before you ignore the comments about Muslim treatment of other religions in countries governed by Sharia, might I suggest you look into it (from more than just Muslim sources). I recently sat and had a long and pleasant conversation with an Arab Christian brother from Lebanon. He has lived and worked throughout the Middle East, and part of what he spoke of was the persecution of Christians there.

I understand politics and have countless examples against yours but this is not the topic here.

BTW: Lebanon doesn't apply Sharia.

[Happy Forever]

Hello brother Joe,

My God is my Creator, is Jesus your creator?

[MorningGlory]

What you don't know is that Christians and Jews never ever mentioned in The Munificent Quran.

Show me your ignorance and quote countless of countless quotes of the all translations you have and I have, Quran never metioned Christians or Jews or old testament or new one.

What YOU don't know is the Qu'ran...

Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Or did this passage slip your mind?

[Happy Forever]

What you don't know is that Christians and Jews never ever mentioned in The Munificent Quran.

Show me your ignorance and quote countless of countless quotes of the all translations you have and I have, Quran never metioned Christians or Jews or old testament or new one.

What YOU don't know is the Qu'ran...

Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Or did this passage slip your mind?

Sister,

This is just translation not the Quran. You quote the intepretations of human words.

Here is the translitiration of this Ayah:

"Waqalati alyahoodu AAuzayrun ibnu Allahi waqalati alnnasara almaseehu ibnu Allahi"

Wa: and

Qalat: said (in Arabic, the verb preceeds the subject)

Al: the

Yahood: what you claim that they are the Jews

Auzayr: Uzair

Ibn: son

Allah

Wa Qalat: and said

Al Nassara: what you claim that they are Christians.

Al Masseih: the Christ

Ibn: son

Allah

The translation of Christians is Messeiheen.

There is no translation for Jews as it is not used in Arabic.

May you tell me what is the meaning of Christians and Jews to tell you the meaning of Yahood and Nassarah?

[Guest]

True Sajdah Is Always Toward The LORD Jesus

For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Romans 14:11-12

And Truly All Will Bow Down To Him

And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. Revelation 5:11-13

All ~

____________

My God is my Creator, is Jesus your creator?

Dear One, Thank You For Sharing Your Heart And For Asking For The Truth

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:1-3

For Yes Beloved, God Is Indeed Your Creator

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:9-14

Just As He Is Your Only Hope

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. John 8:34

For True Freedom

And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. John 8:35-36

If You Will Believe

Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. John 8:54-56

If You Will Believe

Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:57-

And Flee To Jesus From The Wrath To Come

These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. Revelation 17:13-14

Love, Joe