Women Pastors

[Ovedya]

In the Bible a woman may be a deaconess.  However, he authority must rest in that of a male servant over her.  Such as an elder, for example.

Okay Beau (did I spell that right? ), let me ask you something...like I said earlier my husband's grandmother is a pastor, now, her husband does preach sometimes and he is co-pastor I would guess...Anyway...she is the pastor of that church, but her association her church under is led by a man...wouldn't that in a sense be her under the authority of a man? I would think so....just a thought....

I'll get back to you on this in a moment, Called, but I need to address another matter for a moment....

Saints - and this is to all of you, not just one person - As a moderator I can not, will not, permit a single saint to leave this board because of a few callous remarks made in passing - whether they be in jest or otherwise. There is a sister on the boards who was very hurt by some remarks here. And although there have been some apologies, I think it would behoove a few of you guys to take a few moments out to send her a PM.

It also bears mentioning that there are quite a few younger members on the boards who can take offense at what we think are innocent or "playful" remarks.

[Ovedya]

In the Bible a woman may be a deaconess.  However, he authority must rest in that of a male servant over her.  Such as an elder, for example.

Okay Beau (did I spell that right? ), let me ask you something...like I said earlier my husband's grandmother is a pastor, now, her husband does preach sometimes and he is co-pastor I would guess...Anyway...she is the pastor of that church, but her association her church under is led by a man...wouldn't that in a sense be her under the authority of a man? I would think so....just a thought....

Not really, Called (And yes, you spelled it right ). The reason being is this: The Scriptures do not just mention a woman not having the position to assert authority over a man, but also that a woman should not have the position over a man with regard to spiritual instruction (ie. defining doctrine, teaching, etc).

If you notice in the verses that deal with this, Paul gives a couple of reasons. The first reason is that Adam was formed first (1 Tim. 2:13), and the second is that she was deceived (v.14).

I bears noting that it was to Adam that God gave authority over all of creation, and set him as the head over it. It was to Adam that God also set over his wife as his head. Paul also points out the clear God-ordained struture in the family. That being: God>Christ>man>woman>children. This structure is also to be maintained and expressed in the church: God>Christ>church>man>woman>children. It's interesting also to see how God has used this order as a kind of progression. The children come from the woman, the woman came from the man, the church came from Christ, and Christ came from God.

The Scriptures declare that the woman is the weaker vessel (1 Pet. 3:7). This is not an insult in any way, however, lest some misunderstand. The Bible is not a book of mysogyny. The woman's being the weaker vessel has two aspects, one negative, and one positive. On the negative side the woman has a greater chance of being deceived (As Eve was) by doctrines of demons. I believe that this is the primary reason that the Lord forbids a woman to teach in the church. But on the positive side the woman is more open to the Lord and much more soft toward him. In most families it is the man who is more cerebral, but the woman is much more "heartful." Men think with their heads, and women believe with their hearts. I believe it is because of this that there are probably more believing women who are married to unbelieving men than believing men married to unbelieving women(It's interesting how Paul addressed this situation directly, first, before he addressed unbelieving wives).

In any case, there is a balance and a unity that needs to be maintained. And like I wrote previously, it has nothing to do with men having all the power. It just has to do with the preservation of God's ordained way in the homes and in the church. The family is the core of the church. It's no small wonder that Satan has attacked the family in so many ways, and has tried to usurp God's ordained way. Wasn't rebelion against God's way that turned Lucifer into Satan in the first place?

[Ovedya]

I would also like to add there are MANY well know bible scholars who believe Priscilla to be the one who wrote Hebrews but never signed her name because she was a woman. If this is true.......wouldn't that make her an authority in all our lives. A teacher and pastor to us all? Just thought I would throw that out there.

Would you mind quoting a few of these, so that I can read whatthey wrote on the subject?

Most Bible scholars believe that Paul wrote Hebrews because of the writing style and ussage of metaphor.

But to me the most convincing evidence aside from the writing style, and the clear evidence that the one who worte Hebrews was well educated and versed in Jewish Law and tradition, is the way that the epistle is ended (Heb. 13:23-24), and how the writer mentions Timothy so intimately.

[gypc]

At the time I said this thread was going well as in everyone was being kind even in disagreement, now I see that some couldn't resist.

I knew when I started this thread that some will take a hard position....that's fine but as with any thread on these boards, we need to be in love at all cost. I have fell short of this sometimes and I understand that some will be hard based on their convictions. However please let us discuss things at worthy with respect. I've repented, now give me an amen :hug:

[gypc]

Let them preach...... let them spread the Word of God....

mike

I agree.. However, "spreading the Word of God" (i.e. teaching, preaching, prophesying, missionaries, etc.) all of those things can be done outside the role of a "pastor". One does not need to be a pastor to do any of those things.

If the men whom God had called to do this work would actually step up and do it then God wouldn't have to raise up women. There are many times in the bible where the Lord used a woman to do His work because there was not a man strong enough or brave enough or even willing to do it. JMO.

Scriptural references? I disagree that just because a man fails to fulfill his role that God will then place a woman in that same position. God doesn't change His rules/plans/boundaries simply because someone failed to perform well. Look at Adam, Moses, David, Abraham, Samson, Samuel, Jonah, etc....God did not give up on them though they failed. Most often God works in spite of human failures and uses them for His glory as opposed to replacing someone He had called because of their failures. If you can show me an example of what you're talking about, I'd take a look at it. As I understand things, God will never contradict His own Word. Scripture seems to say He doesn't call women to be in authority over men within the church or the home .

I guess I fail to see where this is exclusive to males. Jesus gave this order to every believer....man and woman alike. If we tell a woman she can't hold some possition ( man ordained or God ? ) are we not putting a lid on the Great Commission ?

I agree that women are not excluded from the call to the great commission. However, spreading the gospel does not happen from the role of a "pastor" alone. As I stated earlier, women (according to what I understand of scripture) can certainly teach, preach and prophesy. There are just certain boundaries within those giftings. This doesn't mean a woman can't be used by God to spread His Word (obviously). It just means that He has guidelines for men and women to follow.

This is what it's all about....winning souls for Jesus. Why put a lid ( at any level ) on it when there's so much work to do and so few to do it ?

I certainly agree that we should ALL be out spreading the gospel. But I'm not understanding why not allowing women the role of pastors limits this. How is this putting a lid on winning souls? God set up rules, guidelines, roles and boundaries. This doesn't mean He limits Himself in anyway.

What I am looking for is something I can cling to from the Bible on this issue. I think your point is very good but even with this, do we go by the way we feel about it, or God spoke to you?

I just wanted to point out that this is a very wise way to approach any issue. Keep sticking to your guns and desiring truth, not opinions. Trust me, I think it would be great to believe that I could be a pastor someday ...but so far I just haven't had a peace about it (in light of Scripture). I keep coming back to verses like these:

Ephesians 5:22-24

"Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything."

Colossians 3:18-19

"Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives and do not be embittered against them"

1 Timothy 2:11-15

"A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint."

1 Peter 3:1-2

"In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives"

What these verses tell me is that God designed order within the family. Likewise, He set up an order for the church. We can see this in I Tim 3:8-12; I Cor. 14:34-35 and I Tim. 2:11-15 (above). Specifically in I Timothy 3, Paul talkes about overseers. The original Greek word used there is "episkope" which means an inspector or a superintendent. An overseer has authority, and God is clear that authority within the church should go to men. For those who want to argue this point, please refer to these scriptures specifically and show me where you disagree.

Again, "preaching" and "teaching" and "prophesying" are not positions of authority. I believe the Bible does not exclude women from sharing the gospel to anyone (including men), however in order to do so WITHIN THE CHURCH , she must first have permission from her husband and the senior pastor of the church (if I am understanding the Bible correctly).

Just for clarification: I'm not saying it's wrong for women to ever teach or preach. If she has permission from the lead pastor and her husband, then I believe she is within her boundaries to do so. However, I do believe that Scripture seems to indicate that spiritual leadership and authority belongs to men.

This has to be one of the responses I've heard so far.

Good word Tess.

[Ovedya]

Tess is one smart cookie, eh?

[gypc]

The Scriptures do not just mention a woman not having the position to assert authority over a man, but also that a woman should not have the position over a man with regard to spiritual instruction (ie. defining doctrine, teaching, etc).

If you notice in the verses that deal with this, Paul gives a couple of reasons. The first reason is that Adam was formed first (1 Tim. 2:13), and the second is that she was deceived (v.14).

I bears noting that it was to Adam that God gave authority over all of creation, and set him as the head over it. It was to Adam that God also set over his wife as his head. Paul also points out the clear God-ordained struture in the family. That being: God>Christ>man>woman>children. This structure is also to be maintained and expressed in the church: God>Christ>church>man>woman>children. It's interesting also to see how God has used this order as a kind of progression. The children come from the woman, the woman came from the man, the church came from Christ, and Christ came from God.

The Scriptures declare that the woman is the weaker vessel (1 Pet. 3:7). This is not an insult in any way, however, lest some misunderstand. The Bible is not a book of mysogyny. The woman's being the weaker vessel has two aspects, one negative, and one positive. On the negative side the woman has a greater chance of being deceived (As Eve was) by doctrines of demons. I believe that this is the primary reason that the Lord forbids a woman to teach in the church. But on the positive side the woman is more open to the Lord and much more soft toward him. In most families it is the man who is more cerebral, but the woman is much more "heartful." Men think with their heads, and women believe with their hearts. I believe it is because of this that there are probably more believing women who are married to unbelieving men than believing men married to unbelieving women(It's interesting how Paul addressed this situation directly, first, before he addressed unbelieving wives).

In any case, there is a balance and a unity that needs to be maintained. And like I wrote previously, it has nothing to do with men having all the power. It just has to do with the preservation of God's ordained way in the homes and in the church. The family is the core of the church. It's no small wonder that Satan has attacked the family in so many ways, and has tried to usurp God's ordained way. Wasn't rebelion against God's way that turned Lucifer into Satan in the first place?

This is what I want. Finally someone went indepth concerning this scripture.

Thank you God-man

[Guest Called]

In the Bible a woman may be a deaconess.

[Orr v'emet]

God-Man:

You said: "the point at which a man is instructed by woman in the Word of God is the point at which there is a contradiction with the Word and the order which God has ordained for His people."

So can I take that to mean you have never received instruction from a woman? (I am not asking to be snotty or anything like that...merely trying to understand.) Also several ladies have posted here that they have been called by God to be ministers, what do you believe about that? Is it okay to be a "minister" of sorts as long as women aren't "senior pastors"? Or is it any kind of instruction to men in general?

[naomi3]

Would you mind quoting a few of these, so that I can read whatthey wrote on the subject?

You can do a search on the internet. Just type Percilla, author of Hebrews and it will pull up diferent sites for you.

Now I never said I believe or disbelieve this. Just stating that there are many who believe it to be true and can't help but ask myself what if it where.